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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! andrewj's Avatar
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    Default XM -latest attention seeking behaviour

    Actually the title isn't really fair. The XM has gone for two years now as a daily commuter with nothing more that than an oil change and a bit of injector cleaner.

    A few months back it disgraced it's self at a friends place, dropping a good amount of LHM onto the exhaust. After limping it along on light duties and regular LHM topups, I decide this afternoon to see what needed to be done.

    A quick degrease and bingo, a drop of LHM every 5-10sec from hydraulic union near where the steering column goes into the steering rack. Too easy just whip the joint out replace the rubber seal and off we go....

    No so fast ! after pulling it apart, it looks like there is no rubber joint in this seal - just some kind on of metal on metal arrangement . I put it back together, nipped it up a bit tighter, but still there is an steady leak.

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    Any ideas on what is going on here?
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    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    crappy poogoe steering rack. If it's anything like the BX you will need to replace the ram bushes. The bushes will be flogged out ... so the lines will move and fatigue crack. Yep there crappy poogoe connectors onto the rack. Fun right

    seeya,
    Shane L,
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    Fellow Frogger! andrewj's Avatar
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    yeh, joy

    Having said that, I'm sure there will be a practical solution... I'm thinking perhaps a thick nylon or perhaps copper washer or something similar between the end of the pipe and the body of the steering regulator.

    Any ideas most welcome!

    Cheers,
    Andrew

    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Flex lines may be one option long term, else make your own hard lines with strain relief coils in them. First you need to sort the ram eye bushes.

    The PRV's ability to lose oil out the rocker cover joints and coat everything, is an irritating trait.

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    I was going to suggest an annealed copper washer about 2 mm thick , but I cant think what shape would work , I dont think flat would be good , what pressure does that area see ?

    Peek may do it , instead of copper , its a little softer

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    can't you get the lines from somoene with a parts car
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    You are seriously suggesting he replace age-fatigued steel lines from a 20 year old car, with twenty year old secondhand parts?

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    If there anything like the 306 and bx design. They only wear out when the ram bushes wear out. So provided the 20 year old one has good bushes then there no different to new ones.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    You are seriously suggesting he replace age-fatigued steel lines from a 20 year old car, with twenty year old secondhand parts?
    Why on earth not .... I have pulled perfectly fine hydraulic lines from 55year old Citroens that run way higher pressures. Is poogoe quality so appalling you wouldn't use a hydraulic line from one The only thing you'd check is the ram bushes aren't flogged out on the parts car, so there won't be any fatique cracking of it's lines.
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    It's nothing Peugeot, per se. They don't design or make the racks.

    I'd wager the rambushes on darn near any rack that age, are knackered. Wonder if they can be rose jointed / fitted with a spherical bearing?

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    I did have the hydraulic ram unhooked a few years back to replace the hydraulic return boot and the bushes did not seem particularly floppy at that point- will check again on the weekend.

    Ok, had another look at it yesterday. There is no sign of fatigue in the line - just weeping from the joint - even with no pressure on the steering wheel.

    So it has got to be coming from either where the metal insert goes into the pipe (unlikely given the length) or where the metal insert mates with the body of the steering regulator (if that is the right name for it. - see below.
    XM -latest attention seeking behaviour-20150410_083507%5B1%5D.jpg
    Not sure what material the metal insert would have been- looks like nickel silver - but presumeably it would have been designed to deform somewhat to create the "metal on metal" seal.

    So what material to use? Copper is malleable enough to deform and seal, but does not have any give if vibration/working is the problem. My first instinct was that pfte would give some flexability, and remember using it on the hp side of scuba regulators (200-300bar). Not familiar with Peek - is it flexible at all?

    At the end of the day, I am hoping to get a another 3-4years of daily use out of the vehicle, so happy to experiment with "shorter term" solutions provided don't cause damage or prevent myself or someone else fixing it properly at a later date...

    Cheers,
    Andrew

    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewj View Post
    I did have the hydraulic ram unhooked a few years back to replace the hydraulic return boot and the bushes did not seem particularly floppy at that point- will check again on the weekend.

    Ok, had another look at it yesterday. There is no sign of fatigue in the line - just weeping from the joint - even with no pressure on the steering wheel.

    So it has got to be coming from either where the metal insert goes into the pipe (unlikely given the length) or where the metal insert mates with the body of the steering regulator (if that is the right name for it. - see below.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Not sure what material the metal insert would have been- looks like nickel silver - but presumeably it would have been designed to deform somewhat to create the "metal on metal" seal.

    So what material to use? Copper is malleable enough to deform and seal, but does not have any give if vibration/working is the problem. My first instinct was that pfte would give some flexability, and remember using it on the hp side of scuba regulators (200-300bar). Not familiar with Peek - is it flexible at all?

    At the end of the day, I am hoping to get a another 3-4years of daily use out of the vehicle, so happy to experiment with "shorter term" solutions provided don't cause damage or prevent myself or someone else fixing it properly at a later date...

    Cheers,
    Andrew
    Pull the lines out and check with a magnifying glass. I bet there is a hairline crack somewhere
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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! andrewj's Avatar
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    will take a look - would the cracking usually be in the pipe or the silver metal insert at the end?

    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

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    Can you add in a LHM pipe seal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    Can you add in a LHM pipe seal?
    No, it's not that kind of fitting. Entirely conventional and overtightening will flare the end of the nipple. making it less effective.
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    Fellow Frogger! andrewj's Avatar
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    Ok, I pulled the pipe out and had a look. You can see what I guess you could call brindling on both ends - this should cause a bit of wetness, but not the dripping. Steering ram bush was completely flogged out - what a fragile design - solid pipe into something that is inevitably going to flex!
    XM -latest attention seeking behaviour-20150412_124903.jpg
    I couldn't see any hairline cracks so I put a washer out of a diesel fuel line in to see what happened.
    XM -latest attention seeking behaviour-20150412_130431.jpg Unfortunately it made no difference, So I guess there must be a crack in there that I couldn't see.
    So looks like the only way forward is to replace.
    Any one got part numbers for the ram bushes and pipes? Or will I have to get something made up?? I am thinking flexible lines like on a xantia might be a practical solution if I can convince a hydraulic place to make some up...

    Cheers,
    Andrew

    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

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    As far as I have previously been able to work out it's 405907 22mm OD for XM1. 2 per car, 12mm bolt and apparently used until RP5578. Used on Xsara 2. Later XM has a 24mm OD bush and I'd be happy to know the part number for that bush.

    You could block the ends of the suspect pipe and fill it with kero or similar and see if it weeps anywhere. Or compressed air in water may reveal a slow bubble if it has a crack. Depending on where it is, you could probably repair a crack by hard soldering.

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    Fellow Frogger! XM Mechanic's Avatar
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    It could be the photo, but the pipe looks like it has a crack at the top of the photo?
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    Quote Originally Posted by XM Mechanic View Post
    It could be the photo, but the pipe looks like it has a crack at the top of the photo?
    Could be, however that line is present on both ends, and it looked more like some kind of machining or casting mark (i.e. a series of voids rather than a clean hairline crack.

    After much searching, I managed to get into Citroen Service box. This gives me 405907 for the bush and 95666904 for the pipes. Tempted to try silversoldering the pipes as you suggest David- stress should be much reduced once the bushes are renewed.

    Cheers,
    Andrew

    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

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    Found the number for the 24mm item and can solve my own soggy bush problem!
    Later XM uses a 24mm OD bush and that is 24x12x24L and part# 405910.
    Some cross-references: BIRTH: 4741 - Luo: 512034 - MALO: 30088 - IMPERGOM: 2158 - SASIC: 594104
    A polyurethane conversion kit wold be nice. Shouldn't be hard to make using standard bushes, some tube and washers.

    The factory parts may not be very costly here, but here is an eBay listing for the 24mm variety:
    Steering Rod Bushing Citroen Peugeot C15 Berlingo BX ZX Xsara 24mm OEM 405910 | eBay
    Same vendor had listed the 22mm variety for earlier models, part# 405907.
    Also seems to have some of the non-serviced items for X7 C5 and C6 / 407.

    This should help with 605 and these bushes seem to be common to a lot of PSA cars, but many, like XM II, do not list the bush as a separate item. For reference, there is a 20mm OD bush used on some BX and it is part# 405906.
    Last edited by David S; 13th April 2015 at 11:43 PM.
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Some good data there; the vendor linked is interesting - located in the U.S. but posting from Israel, selling Spanish made parts for French cars. A few of the Polish vendors also have MC branded parts.
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    just by looking at the photo it is a compression fitting, which can be sealed using a plumbing product called loxeal, ($20) but do not get any inside the pipe, keep it only on the rear of the joint and the thread, it seals in 5 mins after being tighten, oh and you will need to clean it before applying, bonds metal to metal

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    Fellow Frogger! andrewj's Avatar
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    XM -latest attention seeking behaviour-crack.jpg
    Ok, tracked down the crack.
    I'm not sure that I am convinced that the flop in the steering bush is responsible - it would have cause radial flexing, where as the cracks are transverse. More likely it is caused by cyclic pressure loading on the insert that looks like it has been machine out of cast rod.

    Dropped by the local brake specialist today and they where able to make up a new pipe. Conical end is formed out of the steel tube, so should last much longer than the original. Sorry but have to say, but not impressed with original engineering here- un-necessarily complex and fragile.

    Ordered some steering ram bushes off the ebay seller above.

    All up, should be back in action for well under $100. Not to bad really for a vehicle of the complexity and performance of an XM...
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    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

  24. #24
    UFO
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    Well you may not be convinced, but many others of us who have experienced exactly the same failure on BX and XMs and have to make the same repairs are. You don't realise the steering ram bushes have gone until it's too late.

    However, glad you have found and fixed the problem.
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    Fellow Frogger! andrewj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    Well you may not be convinced, but many others of us who have experienced exactly the same failure on BX and XMs and have to make the same repairs are. You don't realise the steering ram bushes have gone until it's too late.

    However, glad you have found and fixed the problem.
    Hi UFO,

    My comments where about the specific damage on the pipe pulled out of my car- not doubting for a minute what others have experienced, or indeed the risk of damage from floppy steering ram bushes...

    Cheers,
    Andrew

    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

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