Basic ID19 info wanted..
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    Member wilrex's Avatar
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    Icon7 Basic ID19 info wanted..

    Hi all,
    I am the new owner of a 1961 ID19 and would like some advice on restoration. It is what is politely known as a basket case, but with a bit of work could be active again. Rust is present, but have seen worse. Body is now bare, and will be put on my rotisserie for a good working over.
    Seats are good, interior bodywork good, it is complete, thanks to Michael Paas, from whence it came.
    Engine is now out and dismantled, needs new pistons and rings, possibly a timing chain, all shells, but the shafts and head are OK. Is it unusual to find broken rings in three out of four cylinders?
    Also need new brake pads, all gaskets, clutch plate and more.
    The famous hydraulic suspension needs all rubber parts replaced, as well as recharging of the accumulators.
    Question 1, can I change over to LHM, same as the 2CV?
    2. Where would be a good reliable and cost effective place to get the parts?

    Rex Bridges

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Mate .... feel free to come around and have a chat. I'm near the magpie primary school and have two '63 ID19's on the road. It'll save my fingers a lot of typing If you have seen a shiny blue or ugly pink ID19 on the roads in town, that's me.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hello Rex,

    Because Shane lives close he will be a valuable alibi. He has a post running on the work carried out on his car which is similar to yours. Just go back till you find it.

    You can change to LHM. This requires changing seals etc etc. I believe timing chains basically go forever in D Models but I stand to be corrected.

    Roger Brundle in Castlemaine has had a post going on reconditioning an engine similar to yours. Being earlier and a DS there are some differences. He is a whizz like many on this site.
    Here in Brisbane I source most parts through DS Motors but many on this site buy through the internet.

    As each challenge is started there are many on this site who will help so good luck with "the journey" - - twin brother to Michael, John Paas.

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    When you ask, concerning changing over to LHM, I assume you mean changing the braking system which is separate from the LHS Hydraulic Suspension System in your ID. Being a 1961 Heidelberg ID, you probably could change it over to LHM using the later seals. Shane would confirm this.
    To changeover the complete Hydraulics on the ID, it can be done as Shane and others have proved.
    Michael Paas

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    Member wilrex's Avatar
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    Thanks Michael,
    I am still at the stage of dismantling everything and evaluating. At the moment I can not see any problem that will hinder the restoration, so it is a matter of deciding how to go about it. Is LHM compatible with off the shelf seals and o rings etc? I will talk with Shane after Easter, that should give me a clearer picture of the idiosyncrasies of the unique Citroen design.
    Regards

    RexB

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    Somewhere on this forum is a discussion of the three types of ID braking systems. If you are completely converting the hydraulics to LHM, then it may be worth ensuring you convert the car to the last style of brake system. The reported problems of the brakes jamming on and fluid being ejected under the bonnet may be less of an issue with LHM, but the last style worked well enough to be used in later models.

    Another worthwhile change is to fit flexible hoses for the brakes at the rear arm pivots. There are kits sold for this conversion of the pivot joint of early cars to the later system.

    Those who have posted already can provide clearer guidance on these points.

    This thread is worth reading regarding LHM conversions:
    Relacement seals and engine on old ID
    Last edited by David S; 4th April 2015 at 12:57 PM.

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Once upon a time when the seals came from CitroŽn they were colour coded. Red for LHS, Green for LHM and white for either.
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

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    Tadpole
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    Hi Rex,

    certainly not trying to discourage you from changing over to LHM. However, if your car's current system is still operable and effectively responds to all commands it is not beyond redemption. Instead of LHS2, I have used a mix of castor oil and dot 4 brake fluid for many, many years in various ID19's (without power steering, I must add) and to date have not had a single problem.

    Cheers, Chris

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    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Hello and congratulations on an excellent project. I pulled my id out of a paddock many years ago in mid eighties. I've gone on about this topic plenty here over the years, and won't start again now suffice to say that I ran my '62 ID from '84 to 2012 on LHS2, RR363 and DOT4/castor oil respectively. My only real issue was a leak in the week I sold the car to Donat, and he fixed that pretty promptly. I think that was a calliper rather than seal issue, though he could confirm. Otherwise, I replaced a wheel cylinder seal once every few years. A distinctive thing about the single cylinder pump in the early car is the way it rises and behaves. Screams early ID, and it's very nice. My understanding that you lose all this original plumbing with the conversion, but I'm not sure. You can change it all - that much is certain - but you haven't got the same ID afterwards even if it is marginally improved. I wonder how Mark Browne feels after running his around now for a while? My two bob's worth after a long time enjoying an id that has continued on in the world.

    My car sat in a paddock from 73 to 84. Despite this, she rose pretty much as soon as I got her started, and the system only needed general maintenance. I'm indebted to Ferdi Saliba for helping me and giving me a book at the time when these early Ds were not as popular. All this said, if you have a early Id without much rust, happy days!

    Tim
    Last edited by Middlemoon.1; 6th April 2015 at 07:41 PM.

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    Member wilrex's Avatar
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    Thanks Tim and all, for the interest in my project. It was/is in a state of deterioration that meant it had to be completely dismantled and rebuilt. The state of play now is, the engine has been disassembled and assessed.
    The head is OK, three broken exhaust manifold studs replaced, the backing plate of the water pump internal bolts fixed, and is ready for a valve grind and the engine ready for new liners and pistons.
    The single piston hydraulic pump was seized but now only needs new seals. The carburettor has been ungummed and the choke mechanism repaired, and the fuel pump is ready for a new diaphragm kit. So, it is a matter of just taking one component at a time until I run out of items. Then the gearbox, suspension and body.
    Will see how it progresses over the next few months/years!

    regards, Rex B
    Basic ID19 info wanted..-image.jpgBasic ID19 info wanted..-image.jpgBasic ID19 info wanted..-image.jpg



    Why are they upside down?

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'm not fussed either way about LHM or brake fluid ............ However if you need to replace all the seals ... Not changing to LHM is crazyness. Every leak you get once running LHM is rust prevention. Every brake fluid leak will strip paint and rust the hell out of everything Brake fluid has no positives and many negatives. It however works perfectly fine if your willing to upkeep it. I also think the rubbers used on brake fluid cars are far superior and seem to last forever.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: Is that a 2cv hoffman you have sitting in the shed
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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    Member wilrex's Avatar
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    No, that is a RMB Riley, the Jensen Healey is in the other shed, and the 1983 2CV6Special is in the lean-to at the side.
    the 2CV takes LHM PLUS, of which I have a bottle. Hence the original question about using it in the ID19. Would end confusion and the possibility of using the wrong fluid.
    what is the "plus" in LHMPlus?

    regards

    Rex B

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilrex View Post
    No, that is a RMB Riley, the Jensen Healey is in the other shed, and the 1983 2CV6Special is in the lean-to at the side.
    the 2CV takes LHM PLUS, of which I have a bottle. Hence the original question about using it in the ID19. Would end confusion and the possibility of using the wrong fluid.
    what is the "plus" in LHMPlus?

    regards

    Rex B
    Oh ... you bought the uncomplianced 2cv from the guy in herford street? THe one that appears to have a freshly re-coated chassis under it ? It looked like a very good car when I looked at it. but was way to expensive at the time as it was "un-register-able" as he didn't have the import documents My mother has a sister car too it. If you have spotted a bright red 2cv around town, that's her (not you ).

    Guenuine Total LHM is readily available from ballarat bolts and fasteners quite cheaply in 20litre drums (the way I buy it .... I pour the stuff onto the ground as a pass time ) ... I also have club stock here in 1litre bottles. BTW: You will need at least 5litres for a "D". A one litre bottle is good for top ups.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilrex View Post
    Thanks Tim and all, for the interest in my project. It was/is in a state of deterioration that meant it had to be completely dismantled and rebuilt. The state of play now is, the engine has been disassembled and assessed.
    The head is OK, three broken exhaust manifold studs replaced, the backing plate of the water pump internal bolts fixed, and is ready for a valve grind and the engine ready for new liners and pistons.
    The single piston hydraulic pump was seized but now only needs new seals. The carburettor has been ungummed and the choke mechanism repaired, and the fuel pump is ready for a new diaphragm kit. So, it is a matter of just taking one component at a time until I run out of items. Then the gearbox, suspension and body.
    Will see how it progresses over the next few months/years!

    regards, Rex B
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    Why are they upside down?


    G'day again Rex,


    That's my favorite early colour scheme/interior colour. Does it have a hydraulic or conventional master cylinder brake? They changed in late 61 to the power brake. This car looks to be in great hands. Am hoping to head to ballarat over the next week so could look you up if you are around. Fabulous to see this car being saved - so congrats to Michael who hung on long enough, and to you for taking her on!

    Tim

  15. #15
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hey I hadn't noticed the interior colour ......... I bet that car should be ugly pink like mine! Checkout the seats in my ID19

    Is this the best project car you have ever seen?



    seeya,
    shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Yes Shane The angora white and pink / white interior is great, as is your colour. Harriet would have been this salmon colour if I could have worked it out at the time. Instead it got the french equivalent escale blonde. My DS is having work done at the moment but still plan to be in the area over the next week. Shoot me your mobile so we can work out getting you those tyres.

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    Member wilrex's Avatar
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    I sent a reply earlier but it seems to have been lost in cyberspace , so will repeat, in so many words, if that is OK.

    Yes Shane, Same car, bought a lot cheaper than what he was asking, with import papers, body off rebuild, on club plates, now green, have papers.

    The ID19 was originally white, paint formula white 100%.

    Tim, it has the conventional brake pedal . Yet to check it out further.
    Todays tasks included cleaning parts, dismantling the starter, needs new brushes, should be able to get some locally that might adapt.
    Also more broken exhaust studs rectified, as well as two seized and broken plug top extensions. All is well.. But will be on holidays for the next three weeks.

    I think I have decided to go for LHM for the ID19, compatible to the 2CV.
    BTW, I got Michelin tyres for it at an excellent price from England, ask for info if interested.

    Regards,
    Rex B

  18. #18
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilrex View Post
    I sent a reply earlier but it seems to have been lost in cyberspace , so will repeat, in so many words, if that is OK.

    Yes Shane, Same car, bought a lot cheaper than what he was asking, with import papers, body off rebuild, on club plates, now green, have papers.

    The ID19 was originally white, paint formula white 100%.

    Tim, it has the conventional brake pedal . Yet to check it out further.
    Todays tasks included cleaning parts, dismantling the starter, needs new brushes, should be able to get some locally that might adapt.
    Also more broken exhaust studs rectified, as well as two seized and broken plug top extensions. All is well.. But will be on holidays for the next three weeks.

    I think I have decided to go for LHM for the ID19, compatible to the 2CV.
    BTW, I got Michelin tyres for it at an excellent price from England, ask for info if interested.

    Regards,
    Rex B
    I have parts car if you want to upgrade to button brakes. You will need to convert the rubbers in the brake valve to LHM! No biggie, I've done it That 2cv was a great buy if you got it for less than his asking price.... it is probably now worth his asking price even without compliance.... they seem to have increased 50% in price over the last couple of years
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  19. #19
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    Hi Tim. Yes, this car has the separate master cylinder brake system. It must be early 1961 as Roger Brundle told me that Heidelberg started assembling ID ees in 1961 and you say that they went over to the all inclusive hydraulic system in late 1961. As I said earlier; it's a Heidelberg car.
    It is one of two ID ees I pulled out of a paddock owned by the late Gaston Saint. The only part I "pinched" from this ID, was the rubber round block attatched to the underside of the glass brake fluid bottle.
    The other ID is a very rusty French ID with the fibreglass roof. This ID has proved to be a very good donor car with parts that are in very good condition.
    I'm very grateful to Rex for taking on this challenge and I'll help supply the parts he needs to carry on the restoration.
    When found, it was without a bonnet. Water had found its way down the carby and came out of the sump when I drained the oil. Surprisingly, after removing the spark plugs and some lubrication, I was able to tun the engine over.
    Now that I have some room in my shed I can think about putting some work into the 1963 ID Safari.
    Just coming back fom QLD (once again), I saw John Walton at DS Motors and bought the Tie Rod and Suspension Boots for the D Special. It is so differant working on a "late" car!
    Michael

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    I found out today, after a visit to the local nut and bolt gurus, that they can not supply 7mm or 9 mm bolts and nuts , or suggest where I might get them. It is these two sizes that make up most of the engine and body fasteners on the ID19. Must be the right thread pitch for studs as well.
    Got starter motor brushes off the shelf though. All of $4. One out of two not bad!
    Rex B

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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Genuine bolts have double chevrons on the head. And the threads often have weird pitches. You need a parts car!

    Roger

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    A parts car is invaluable for odd fasteners and fittings. It must have been by at least 1970 they changed to more usual metric sizes, so you have to be careful about nuts and bolts that do not seem to fit on earlier models. Usually, the earlier nuts are about 1/3rd thicker than the later version, which is an easy visual clue. You will find the threads are different on something like early vs late the boot hinges, which look the same.

    The screws on late cars are almost all Posidriv and this may be the case on early cars too. Not sure, but make sure you use the correct bit for each screw as many people use a Philips bit on the flatter Posidriv head and ruin it.

  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Most fasteners should be interchangeable for the later cars. The exception is the M5 bolts, stud and nuts. They are M5 x 0.75 on the early D's and M5 x 0.8 on the later cars.

    I may have a few fasteners here if your stuck. Sadly not a lot though as a lot of fasteners are always missing on cars when I get them (or have been replaced with rubbish). M5's are usually broken, rotten or stripped.

    The Citroen fasteners are extremely high quality, so get genuine stuff from a parts car if possible Not all have the Chevron heads.... it's seems to be sporadic in my experience...

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilrex View Post
    I found out today, after a visit to the local nut and bolt gurus, that they can not supply 7mm or 9 mm bolts and nuts , or suggest where I might get them. It is these two sizes that make up most of the engine and body fasteners on the ID19. Must be the right thread pitch for studs as well.
    Got starter motor brushes off the shelf though. All of $4. One out of two not bad!

    Rex B
    7mm bolts (actually capscrews, with the thread up to the head) are available in Australia and were (are?) made by Champion. I've been sourcing them in various lengths from a nut and bolt specialist in Bendigo for the last 15 years. They tell me that they are also used on BMW bikes. Alternatively, bolts of various lengths are available from a number of European Citroen spares suppliers such as Citroworld.
    9mm bolts are another story - I'm not aware of a source other than a parts car, but there's not many of them on a D. I have a few.
    You may find that a real problem is the 5mm bolts/capscrews and nuts. As Shane has pointed out, the early cars were fitted with 0.75mm pitch threads rather than the common 0.8mm pitch, and, as far as I'm aware, new 5 x 0.75 hardware is just not available. Parts car again.
    roger

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