THP155 Timing rattle?
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Thread: THP155 Timing rattle?

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Default THP155 Timing rattle?

    Hi Guys,

    I have a C4 II THP155 with 15 000km on it.

    Often on it's first start for the day it gives quite a rough rattle that to me sounds like the timing chain takes a while to tension up. Some mornings a couple of seconds other morning a good 5 or more seconds.

    It makes me cringe listening too it. My warranty is about to expire, so i will call Citroen today to ask about it but i wouldn't mind some personal experiences.

    Is a bit of timing rattle normal for these engines while the tensioner gets some oil? or if they are noisy it means trouble is already on the way?

    Thanks,

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Hi Guys,

    I have a C4 II THP155 with 15 000km on it.

    Often on it's first start for the day it gives quite a rough rattle that to me sounds like the timing chain takes a while to tension up. Some mornings a couple of seconds other morning a good 5 or more seconds.

    It makes me cringe listening too it. My warranty is about to expire, so i will call Citroen today to ask about it but i wouldn't mind some personal experiences.

    Is a bit of timing rattle normal for these engines while the tensioner gets some oil? or if they are noisy it means trouble is already on the way?

    Thanks,

    Dave
    Hi Dave,
    I've no experience with that motor but. . . have you checked the crankshaft pulley?

    Cheers
    Chris
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    No haven't looked, only listened and cringed haha. I expect the fact that it goes away after a few seconds points more to a tensioner taking a while to get pressure. If it were a pulley surely the noise would be constant.

    Dave


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    No haven't looked, only listened and cringed haha. I expect the fact that it goes away after a few seconds points more to a tensioner taking a while to get pressure. If it were a pulley surely the noise would be constant.

    Dave
    Worth a look Dave, on our early C5Hdi the noise would be present on start up but not quite so once running, diesel clatter but slightly louder.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Thanks Chris,

    I will get it checked out. I think I'm pre biassed toward the chain/tensioner because its a known fault in these engines (at least the previous generations anyway).

    Dave


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    It's otherwise known as an EP6 and used in a number of makes and models. There were improvements made to chains, tensioners and other components, so definitely talk to the dealer as they'll know the latest on dealing with problems.

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    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Hi David,

    Thanks for that. Do you know what year the issues were improved/resolved? Mine is a late 2011 build / mid 2012 compliance.

    Cheers,

    Dave


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    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    It's booked in for an overnight stay and cold start on the 7/8th. It better rattle that day haha.


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    You'd find it's been a moving feast over time and a number of components and setting techniques changed. Some 'fix' you might read about online from a few years back is likely to be obsolete. Fundamentally, it seems running the foaming inlet tract cleaner though at each service is probably an important ritual. It could also be some external part, say the electric water pump, making a lot of noise.

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    It will be interesting to know how it pans out Dave, I have a had similar issues on and off with my 208 with the same engine, the dealer doesn't seem to notice anything out of the ordinary.

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    Yes you need to replace the entire timing assembly. Looking at around $1100 from my work. Do it a lot and gets rid of rattle and prevents upper guide breakage which then causes chain to snap which then causes bent valves....
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    Hi Dave,

    Just as well there are some spare cars lying around at home while the parents are away at Cit-in. Will be interesteing to see how it goes. Are you going to be present for the start-up? Perhaps do a few trials where someone holds that turbo heat shield when you start the engine first time in the morning just to make sure its not that vibration coming through on the fast idle of a first start-up.

    Cheers,

    Ken W (@ Nuriootpa)

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    So the car had its overnight visit. It was booked in to be 'listened to on cold start'.

    They called me to pick it up yesterday afternoon, when I arrived they said that they didn't hear any noise but it ran a little rough on start so they carried out a reinitialisation procedure on it. Now I never asked for this to be done, it was just there to be 'listened to on a cold start'. The car was there only a couple of months ago for its 10 000km service where I literally asked them to hook it on to their computer and update all software/firmware/updates available and i'm sure I paid for this during the service.

    So anyway, I questioned why this was done when I hadn't been asked about it. The head service guy said because it ran rough on cold start. So I asked him how it could possibly have degraded so badly in the couple of months since the 10k service. He just kept using the buzz word 'reinitialisation'. I asked if he meant they have access to change the mapping or parameters of the engine? and he said no. So I said I didn't understand what I was paying for if I wanted to reinitialise I'd just unplug the battery haha. I also half tongue in cheek asked if since the mapping is locked if the car could maybe run rough on cold start when the timing chain is slack/untensioned/stretched perhaps haha.

    Other annoying thing is that they would not accept that the car was still under warranty and said I would have to take it up with Citroen. The Citroen warranty date for the car is literally before the compliance plate stamped in the boot which is confusing.

    Anyway I was pretty unhappy with the whole experience and ended up paying the money so I could take my car home.

    Anyway here is a video of me starting the car literally this morning. The noise is the one present from around 11 sec to 15 sec. The GoPro is pretty harsh so ignore the other noises they sound pretty normal to the ear.

    The car did this they day before i dropped it off, and then today...so how they didn't hear it

    https://youtu.be/ipmZW7JrcwU

    Dave


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    Quote Originally Posted by young 4 old pug View Post
    Yes you need to replace the entire timing assembly. Looking at around $1100 from my work. Do it a lot and gets rid of rattle and prevents upper guide breakage which then causes chain to snap which then causes bent valves....
    I think young 4 old is correct - I bought a 2007 Peugeot 207GTi in January this year which has the THP MINI Cooper engine, got it super cheap because amongst other things, it had this problem. Basically the tensioner on the timing chain would fail, causing the timing chain to stretch and slap against the guides. On many cars it would cause the upper guide to break. Lucky for me this didn't occur with my car. I located the parts and arranged for an independent euro specialist to do the work.

    What stands out for me from your video is like my car, the 'death rattle' only lasts for a few seconds. It's also possible that this problem can occur after only a few thousand ks from what I read. My car had only done 49,000ks and from what I gathered from the previous owner, it had been a problem for some time causing the car to go into 'limp mode'. Since I've had the timing chain, tensioner and guide rails replaced, no more limp mode and like a new car.

    There is more information here - MINI Cooper S R56 Engine Death Rattle Noise

    Hope it helps.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    If that is indeed the issue I will expect it to be fixed under warranty. The compliance date of my car is April 2012 and I called them about this issue in March to book it in (and asked about it at the last service).

    Dave


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    I hope they do, the previous owner of my car was in a constant battle with Peugeot to accept there was a problem with the engine. Eventually he got tired of it and few other problems so despite enjoying driving the car, it just wasn't worth the hassle so he sold it.

    When I bought it I researched some of the problems and worked out some of the solutions. The local Peugeot stealership were useless and were either ignorant of the timing chain problem or were simply refusing to acknowledge (along with a couple of other well known issues in Europe).

    I was lucky enough to find a mechanic very familiar with Euro's as he migrated from the UK a few years back. Knew all about the problems with my car and how to repair them. The stealership wanted to charge me thousands to investigate and fix problems that ended up costing me a fraction.

    I think you may well have a battle with whoever you bought the car off to firstly acknowledge the problem is common to the engine and secondly repair it under warranty but keep us updated.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Well I'm the first private owner of the vehicle. It's an ex Citroen demo that ended up being sold 'used' when a dealership went bust.

    Fun times ahead haha

    Out of interest how many K's were on the 207 when you bought it? I think my issue is particularly unreasonable considering it's a Dec. 2011 build car with 15K on it. edit saw 49k. thanks


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    Ok the warranty - what year model is the car? Is it under factory warranty or "extended" warranty?
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    What year is the c4?
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  20. #20
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    That's definetly the Timing Chain. I have been there with my THP. Fortunately replaced under warranty Twice!

    It's a known problem and Citroen/Peugeot should provide goodwill coverage. Go citroen customer service direct.

    Send me a pm and I will happily to you through a line of argument you could take

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    According to the dealer the delivery/warranty date was 4/2/12. The compliance plate is 4/12 though. It would have only had the factory 3 year warranty.


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    Probably about the time Ateco handed over to Sime Darby, so they might have pushed some cars through without having applied the compliance plate. Your difficulty is having bought it as a used demo, so you receive the balance of the warranty, not the full 3 years. However, unless February is somewhere in the purchase documents with the car, you could be forgiven for expecting the balance of 3 years from the date of local 'manufacture', i.e. the compliance date, at the earliest. I'd guess the Qld consumer affairs people would have a view, but you obviously want to see what Citroen / Sime Darby and the selling dealer have to say about it. Being able to point to the problem being reported before the February expiry and not being resolved would no doubt be helpful, but it sounds like they think it's OK.

    p.s. Pulling the battery will not necessarily be equivalent to 'initialising' via the diagnostic software.
    Last edited by David S; 9th April 2015 at 10:25 PM.

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    1000+ Posts Bruce H's Avatar
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    Dave, I had the same sort of experience with warranty date on my DS3, and kept getting told they'd look into it but never got a reply. In my case the warranty start date seemed to be the date it was delivered to the dealership, not initial registration, and the Brisbane Citroen sales rep had told me it was from the date in the book, which no-one seemed to accept. They're not getting my service or purchase business from now on as a result.
    Hopefully you get a better resolution to your problem.


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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Probably about the time Ateco handed over to Sime Darby, so they might have pushed some cars through without having applied the compliance plate. Your difficulty is having bought it as a used demo, so you receive the balance of the warranty, not the full 3 years. However, unless February is somewhere in the purchase documents with the car, you could be forgiven for expecting the balance of 3 years from the date of local 'manufacture', i.e. the compliance date, at the earliest. I'd guess the Qld consumer affairs people would have a view, but you obviously want to see what Citroen / Sime Darby and the selling dealer have to say about it. Being able to point to the problem being reported before the February expiry and not being resolved would no doubt be helpful, but it sounds like they think it's OK.

    p.s. Pulling the battery will not necessarily be equivalent to 'initialising' via the diagnostic software.
    Thanks David,

    I did express concern over a start up noise even at the 10k service which was before even the system warranty date. They didn't seem to think anything was wrong then (but to be fair they never asked to keep it overnight so probably only worked on it warm at that stage).

    Yes the battery thing was tongue in cheek. I understand with things like lexias, diagbox (for home players) and the dealers proper computer there are calibration procedures that can be done. I fully expect I will have to learn to recalibrate the EGS one day.

    Dave

    Edit: as an update I called the service manager yesterday, got his email address and sent him the video to look at. I haven't heard back yet.


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    I can't recall exactly, but isn't there a belt roller on an arm right down the bottom that takes the water pump out of service when it's warming up? If that's fitted, then watch what it does when an assistant starts the car and you hear the noise. Maybe, that's simply a red herring idea, but it's odd the noise in your recording takes a moment to begin and then stops abruptly. I would have thought a bad tensioner or slack chain would make noise immediately and also be more metallic in sound.
    Last edited by David S; 10th April 2015 at 02:41 PM.
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