BONKERS the noise is sending me bonkers!!!
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Thread: BONKERS the noise is sending me bonkers!!!

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default BONKERS the noise is sending me bonkers!!!

    Hi everyone and now for a insane story!!...

    I have the most annoying and so far untraceable ‘noise’ in my 2007 (face lift model) Citroen C5 2.2Lt HDi Bi-Turbo 5 door hatch, with the 6 spd sports auto transmission...

    OK here we go: the noise is a ‘rubbing’ sound that emanates from the front nearside (left hand side facing forward)...it cannot be heard from the back seats, it is not heard in the same intensity from the front passenger seat but is heard loud and clear from the drivers seat (right hand drive) and when it is at its loudest ie slowly going through a right hand bend, it can just be felt through the steering wheel...

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    It is a regular cyclic sound that is generated in sync with the road wheel rotation – any gear, any speed, it is totally in sync with the road wheel speed...it sounds like a worn out brake pad coming into contact with a slightly bent disc – but it’s not!!...

    It is definitely originating from the front left side, this is shown when the car is turned into a right hand bend/corner when the noise will get markedly louder...conversely when turning into a left hander the noise will disappear, indicating that when the culprit is loaded up, then it becomes more ‘stressed’ or more in ‘contact’ hence the increase in noise level...

    These are the areas that have been investigated:

    1. All wheels and tyres have been rotated and/or changed...
    2. All wheel bearings thoroughly checked...
    3. All Brake discs and callipers/pads etc as above...
    4. Left hand side drive shaft removed, CV joints split, repacked and replaced...
    5. Transmission serviced, including fluid change...

    No components were found to be faulty or had undue wear patterns, abrade marks or the like...

    The only area that seems to remain a grey area is the transaxle/diff, which would rotate at road wheel speed, but the loading factor is a mystery??...

    If anyone has even the remotest idea, or maybe even knows what it is – a very knowledgeable Citroen dealer was absolutely sure it was a ‘cup and spring’ in the inner CV tripod joint that, due to an over-extension of the drive shaft, would become loose and would then wedge itself into something in the joint and subsequently make the noise...well good try but no cigar...as mentioned above the CV joints were stripped and nothing untoward was found, dam!!!...

    It is of course sending me slowly bonkers but I may go deaf before that due to the hi-fi being turned up so loud to mask out the noise – HELP PLEASE!!!...thanx everyone for reading...dizzy

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    My bet is on the front wheel bearing. Probably not worn enough to be able to spot wear on inspection but still worn enough to make a noise when rotating under load which gets worse with more load as when doing a right hand turn. It is the only 'hard' connection between the wheel and the car. I would think that replacing the wheel bearing would be the next 'diagnostic' move.

    Cheers,

    Ken W

  3. #3
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    Old tyres, even if they are not heavily worn, can sometimes howl quite badly, but you tend to hear it throughout the car. Wheel weights, if stuck on at the wrong place can give you a tick tick tick noise as they rub on the brake caliper each rotation, but I doubt that is your problem. Driving along a road with a retaining wall to your right with the window down is one way to amplify any noises.

    The crushed cup in the driveshaft tends to give you vibration at certain speeds, say 60-70, and often on a gentle bend. Early 6 speed cars were prone to the problem if the driveshaft was over-extended for some reason and the cup was made longer in replacement driveshafts. If the noise is always there and sounds a little like brrrrrrrr with the frequency rising a little as speed increases, then it's likely to be a wheel bearing. However, it can be very difficult to work out which one until it becomes quite worn.

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    An old German mechanic who was a wiz on VW when asked how to check wheel bearings(front) advised me to alternately place each side of the front suspension on a stand with the wheel elevated and with the car suitably secured put it in top gear and engage the clutch and give it a rev. Sounds drastic but in very short order it was obvious which side was faulty. I replaced the offending bearing and all was well for the remainder of it life. I suspect that the Health and Safety would not approve but it worked for me and the mechanic is still alive and well.
    Regards Dennis.

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    Have you tried light pressure on the brakes as you turn to the right? It still well maybe a rogue disc.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    How many ks has it travelled???? I would have thought it was too new to have any bearing issues, UNLESS.... could the car have been left unused at any stage for a period of more than a few weeks? The way the grease works in these front bearings, it could be the case. I would have thought you would be ok for about another 10 years. I had to replace both my front hub bearings in the Xantia, but at that stage it had done 218,000 ks.

    And a fellow Frogger had a very unusual sound from one side at the front, just as you have described. It was a front wheel drive car, a CX, and I helped him .. I just couldn't figure it out either. We ended up deciding it was his hub bearing. He removed both of the front hubs, replaced the bearings , and STILL had exactly the same problem.

    Then he swapped all the car wheels for a full set from a different car, he wanted to use a set of Mags he had. Problem solved.
    It was one faulty tyre. He left the old ones stacked in a pile on their steel rims in his back yard. One very warm afternoon he heard a loud bang. He still hadn't worked out why the noise was gone from the car, but he discovered just one of the four tyres had EXPLODED in the sun. It had burst like a bicycle tyre, the old tyre had de-laminated for some reason... and that had been the problem all along.

    So, here's what I'd do. Just replace the offending wheel with the spare and then see if the noise still happens. If it does, try finding someone else with the same car, but no problem. Try swapping a couple of wheels over. Test them. Swap them back. You know that if it still makes the noise with someone elses wheels, it's got to be the hub bearing.
    Good luck... cheers... George1/8th

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    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    17" alloys with Michelin tyres? My C4 had a very similar issue to your C5. Changed the tyres to a softer compound japanese tyre and the noise & vibration disappeared & the ride improved dramatically. Michelin's harden far faster than they wear with age. Well worth the expense.
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

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    don
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    Maybe a transmission mount ?

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    Fellow Frogger! dieselman's Avatar
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    The handbrake operates the front calipers and quite often doesn't release completely.
    This also affects the automatic adjustment of the pads.
    Are the rims warm after a bit of a drive?
    Leon

    1987 Peugeot 505 GTD
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    2010 Citroen C5 3.0 V6 HDi (wife's car)

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    Hi guys...apologies for the delay in responding I have huge problems with net/mobile and land-line access where I live and am often off the net for days/weeks at a time - grrrrrrr we love you Telstra!!...OK I will answer/comment on each response from the top: Ken W yup my conclusion is coming to the same point and I will replace the front l/h wheel bearing as a matter of course, thanx for that...David S the tyres are new, I take your point re. weights etc but will do w/bearing as above thanx for your input...dalderton will replace bearing, thanx for the VW mechanic story...dunky yup tried all permutations and combinations of brakes/suspension etc etc will try bearing next, see above thanx for the input...George 1/8th its done 103K kms have tried all combinations of wheels inc spare, hope it's the wheel bearing? thanx for your input...Jinandfonic had Michelins on there now a new set of Japanese tyres which seem fine, thanx for your help...Don but a transmission mount would be v.unlikely to make a cyclic noise as this is but will check them thanx for your input...dieselman have checked the h/brake already but will check again thanx for your input...

    OK maybe we should all take a break until I have had the wheel bearing fitted and then I will report back and hopefully all will be well...once again thanx a mill to everyone for all your comments and suggestions...a very confused dizzy!!
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  11. #11
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    Dam, dam and dam again!!!...well after waiting for about 2 weeks to get my wheel bearing – things take forever here in the Ozzie bush!! – I had it fitted yesterday and the noise is still there...so now the only remaining possibility is the diff/transaxle assembly, this seems to be the only other component(s) that can possibly react to an increase in load when turning into a right hander – just to refresh; the noise (a rubbing sound like a worn brake pad on the disc, in sync with the wheel rotation) increases when I turn into a right hander - indicating that it is the left hand front wheel assembly, well that is the logical explanation but as everything has now been triple checked, inc the drive shaft stripped and now wheel bearing replaced, the only other place is in the diff and there is no way that I am going there, simply just too much filthy lucre needed to make it worth while...so thanks a mill guys for all your suggestions and help, sorry I am not able to solve the puzzle and believe me I would dearly like to be able to!!...if I do decide to go into the murky depths of the transaxle and find the problem I will post the results, or indeed if I discover what it is full stop...kindest regards to all dizzy

  12. #12
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    If the noise wasn't always being described as rubbing like a pad, I'd have gone straight to a CV joint on the driveshaft, though they usually click. If the rubber boot on the outer joint is split or damaged, I'd be even more suspicious.

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    Hi seasink...the whole drive shaft (l/h side) has been stripped and checked, all OK and both sides rubber boots are perfect, groan!!...thanx for the help...kind regards dizzy

  14. #14
    wielder of the sword Australdi's Avatar
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    Have you got standard size tyres on? ...could a tyre be rubbing on the inner wheel arch as you turn?
    Aus
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    deteriorates when the bottom environment cannot support animal life.
    The bottom is the area that runs out of oxygen first, it is where the most oxygen is used........"



    '84 fuego GTX
    '87 fuego GTX
    '85 fuego GTX
    ....beginning to look a bit frightning isn't it.

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    Tadpole
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    Good thought astraldi but the tyres are standard size and brand new and we have checked and rechecked anywhere that a wheel might contact anything else...kind regards dizzy

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken W View Post
    My bet is on the front wheel bearing. Probably not worn enough to be able to spot wear on inspection but still worn enough to make a noise when rotating under load which gets worse with more load as when doing a right hand turn. It is the only 'hard' connection between the wheel and the car. I would think that replacing the wheel bearing would be the next 'diagnostic' move.

    Cheers,

    Ken W
    I'm with Ken. Front wheel bearings tend to go in pairs on modern cars.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    I'm with Ken. Front wheel bearings tend to go in pairs on modern cars.
    Yes, they are homo-kinetically paired at the factory, follow One Direction, chatter to each other and go out in sympathy together.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Yes, they are homo-kinetically paired at the factory, follow One Direction, chatter to each other and go out in sympathy together.
    WTF does that mean? I was under the impression that homokinetic joint was a CV Joint by another name.

    As to h-k pairing that's a total mystery
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  19. #19
    wielder of the sword Australdi's Avatar
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    I thought David was referring to teenage girls...
    pug206gti likes this.
    Aus
    ".....the good health of a pond is held in a delicate balance. A pond's condition
    deteriorates when the bottom environment cannot support animal life.
    The bottom is the area that runs out of oxygen first, it is where the most oxygen is used........"



    '84 fuego GTX
    '87 fuego GTX
    '85 fuego GTX
    ....beginning to look a bit frightning isn't it.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Teenage girls... with a ... CV Joint ... the mind boggles.

  21. #21
    wielder of the sword Australdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Yes, they are homo-kinetically paired at the factory, follow One Direction, chatter to each other and go out in sympathy together.
    teenage girls are incapable of going anywhere except in pairs (min of 2 girls required to go to ladies loos for instance), follow one direction (and other boy bands), chatter to each other (non stop) and go out in sympathy with each other (oh I know girlfriend! )
    addo likes this.
    Aus
    ".....the good health of a pond is held in a delicate balance. A pond's condition
    deteriorates when the bottom environment cannot support animal life.
    The bottom is the area that runs out of oxygen first, it is where the most oxygen is used........"



    '84 fuego GTX
    '87 fuego GTX
    '85 fuego GTX
    ....beginning to look a bit frightning isn't it.

  22. #22
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    At what age does it normally stop, you reckon? I've seen plenty of thirty-something women out in twos - and not an item.
    Australdi likes this.

  23. #23
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    Too much sun today? Well, maybe wind and a bit of rain? Anyway, I'm sure Rob would know the 'homokinetic' technique of mechanical pairing for high speed rotating components. However, it's a rather esoteric method in an Enatabulator-esque manner. The bearings will of course mostly turn only in one direction and of course they would need to communicate their woes with each other to fail at the same time. Hadn't even thought of the teenage girl or CV angles, but there is a strange parallel if bearings only fail together in sympathy!
    Last edited by David S; 13th April 2015 at 01:49 AM.
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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    I would certainly check the pairing of the bearing before tearing...........
    Into the diff.

  25. #25
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    Would suggest removing brake pads and swapping the from left to right. Nothing to really except time.

    Had this problem once and turned out to be the brake pad shims/backing plates. Worked a treat when I swapped pads left to right.

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