A couple of traction related questions
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Thread: A couple of traction related questions

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    Fellow Frogger! brycedunn's Avatar
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    Default A couple of traction related questions

    Hello Aussiefrogs,

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    I have recently acquired a slough built Lt 15 and had a few questions from the group.

    1) Given the car has no oil filter, what oils are best to use. I've heard to use a low detergent oil or a generic non synthetic, but any specific reconsiderations?

    2) Ditto for gear oil for the transmission. I've used the nulon additive on my D for good effect, is this worth it for the TA gearbox?

    3) are there other workshop manuals besides the ones uploaded to dropbox? The D series has a more extensive set. I can find manuals for a Lt 15 up to 1950, and a Big Six mid 50s, but not sure if the earlier manual is applicable to my car. The wiring diagrams also seem to be for 6 volt cars and don't show the fuses. I had a blown fuse which I have replaced and I can see no difference in anything in the car. i.e. the stuff that worked before still does, and the stuff that doesn't, still doesn't.

    4) Safe place to lift the car on a two post hoist. I have access to one, and would prefer to use it, but lift the car safely without damaging it, or having 1000kg of 50s metal on top of me.

    5) Is there anything non standard to bleeding the brakes in terms of fluid or technique? The fluid in the reservoir doesn't look pleasant.

    Any other suggestions gratefully received too.
    Bryce
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Trading Estate's Avatar
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    Re Workshop manual- most important activities would be the same for !950 to !954. The drop box parts illustrations and pictures are almost as useful.
    Re the brakes the bleeder hex screws (bolt) are unlike modern nipple type ones. I have plastic pipe to the waste fluid that isa tight fit into the recess once the set "bolt ' is removed, then bleed as per normal. Obviously still a danger air could get in, but it works for me. If the car has been sitting a while you may need to bleed it all out, or better remove all drums (special puller for the front) and check condition of linings / wheel cylinders / hoses and wheel bearings. Use the manual to work out direction of snail adjusters to be nipped up (hex nuts on the back of backing plate) after drums have been replaced to reduce pedal movement. Should be ok.

    I use the Nulon additive in the gearbox along with normal EP 90 gear box oil.
    Some tractions have a bypass filter to strain out impurities but basically there's usually a lot of crap in there anyway

    Oil - well take advice from other posters!
    '04 Megane
    Gone but not forgotten
    '71 16 TS, '72 16 TL, '74 15TS,'82 20TS Series 2, '85 25 GTX. '49 L15,

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    You can lift with a two post hoist by placing the pads under the welded seam on the outer edges of the monocoque. Make sure the lift points are as wide apart as you can manage and the balance point will be more towards the front. Do not try to lift from an unbalance position.

    The work shop manuals are from 1938 to 1950 as a rule and suffice for all operations except electrical. There is a 1949 Lucas diagram for the wiring from Tony Jackson on drop box. The later cars have modifications to this diagram but the principles are still the same and can be easily worked out.

    When adjusting the brake cams with the drums on the direction of rotation for the cams is easy to work out. Place the spanner on the 17mm hex on the back plate and lift up to tighten and press down to loosen. Always press the pedal hard after any adjustment and check that the wheel has not locked up with the brake shoes binding. Aim for just a hint of noise from the drum contacting the shoes.
    If the drum binds after the pedal test do the adjustment again and be less aggressive. The book says never to finish the adjustment with a backing off movement but I have found a slight back off is permissible.

    When bleeding the brakes start on the front RHS and then the front LHS, the rear LHS and then the rear RHS. In this manner on a Slough car you are progressively getting further away from the master cylinder and bleeding is quicker and more effective.
    As David said if the car has been sitting a long time without use a full bleed and new fluid may be necessary. However this may expose corrosion in the system by removing sludge from the bottom of the cylinder bores. This is a good thing because it exposes the need to re-sleeve all of the operating cylinders and the need for new cups and seals.
    If you have to go to this length I would seriously consider a complete compressed air blow out followed by a complete wash ou of all of the lines. I would then refill with Silicone based Dot5 fluid to prevent moisture absorption from contaminating the system ever again.
    I have done this to my 53 Lt15. It is also advisable to renew the flexible brake hoses before using the new fluid. After all they are likely to be 60 plus years old!
    JohnW likes this.
    Cheers Gerry

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    I endorse Gerry's comment re the flexible hoses. After years of working on the brakes and with everything new I still had slightly differential brakes.Especially apparent under sudden heavy braking which is when you want it least. Finally discovered one collapsed front hose.It would let fluid through while bleeding etc and under light pedal pressure, when I took it off you could not blow through it !!! Superficially it looked fine.
    I think if the car has been inactive for any length of time ( 3 plus years)with standard type brake fluid (Dot 4) I would recommend a total overhaul and flush of the system. Get cylinders stainless steel lined etc and go to the Dot5 silicone fluid.
    As for engine oil I use reasonable quality 20w-50 ie valvoline xld, castrol gtx .the knack is to change it often ie 6 months, or 1000 miles.
    1950 Light 15 - Blanche 'Claude'
    1949 Light 15 - Noir 'Emilie'
    1982 2CV Special - Lagune Bleu 'Daffie'
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    It's interesting to hear that you have acquired a Lt15 Bryce. I spoke to Roger Brundle yesterday concerning the special Puller to remove the front hubs on a traction. I was led to believe that the rear hubs needed the puller but "Trading Estate" has confirmed Roger's belief that it is the front hubs that needed the puller.
    I need to get more acquainted with Tractions as brother John has a couple down here that need "a bit of looking at".
    With the Roadworthy requirements down here, the hubs need to be removed as photographs need to be taken of the brake linings etc. ---- hence the need for the puller.
    Digressing a little; It is fascinating to see the extraordinary work that Roger is doing rebuilding the DS engine and the wonderful improvements on the engine of the SM.
    Looking forward to further developments with your Lt15 ---- Michael

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    Fellow Frogger! brycedunn's Avatar
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    Hi Gerry, Bobsie, Michael, & 'Trading Estate',
    Thanks for your replies, very helpful.
    The car had a lot of work done back in late 2013 (at a citroen specialist), and I belive some of that work was on the brakes. I don' t have an itemized invoice, but I do plan to ring up and find out if they remember. It is on full rego, so it was being used. Having said that, the brakes shuddered quite a bit when I drove it home, already better on the 2nd drive. I don't recall the condition of the hoses, but I will definitely look - my main reason for giving them attention is that I removed the lid of the fluid reservoir and it didn't look so good in there.

    There are a few things I do want to look at with the car, but first up I want to at least get a baseline of having the oil done, chassis greased and replenish the brake fluid (and lines if they need it). Then I can look at some of the lower priority items. I should have some time over the easter break to start doing a few things, but figured better to start asking questions now before everyone goes off to Cit-in.
    Bryce
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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    One of the things that is not working is the fuel gauge. Are the 6v senders from French cars the same as the 12v? I've only seen the 6v advertised on the various online stores.

    Thanks,
    Bryce
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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    Fellow Frogger! Trading Estate's Avatar
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    These are bit notorious. Have you given the gauge a firm tap as an interim measure? Check the earth wire in the boot floor. Check whether its live to the positive with a multimeter?
    '04 Megane
    Gone but not forgotten
    '71 16 TS, '72 16 TL, '74 15TS,'82 20TS Series 2, '85 25 GTX. '49 L15,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trading Estate View Post
    These are bit notorious. Have you given the gauge a firm tap as an interim measure? Check the earth wire in the boot floor. Check whether its live to the positive with a multimeter?
    Tried the tap, but not the multimeter yet, worth a go, Thanks.
    Have also looked that wires are connected to the back of the gauge.
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    The sender unit has one basic design flaw. It wiper arms on the resistance windings earth to the body through the pivot of the float arm. This causes an intermittent contact when the unit becomes worn.
    There is a simple fix. From an electronics hobby store buy some solder wicking braid. It is available in a small roll pack. Cut a length and solder one end to the float arm, attach the other end of the wick to a small terminal eye and solder the connection. Crimping terminals are ok once the plastic crimp sleeve has been removed. Then drill a small hole in the body of the sender so that a self tapping screw can secure the lead to the body. Select a small self tapper ( 5mm in length ) and make sure you choose a location that will not interfere with the internal contacts and resistance as they move through their range.
    This will bypass the poor earth condition of the arm!
    Also make sure that the wiper contact maintains good contact with the resistance ( multi meter) and then reassemble.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! brycedunn's Avatar
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    Thanks Gerry,
    I'll take a look at the unit and see if it otherwise looks good and could be repaired.
    Bryce

    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    The sender unit has one basic design flaw. It wiper arms on the resistance windings earth to the body through the pivot of the float arm. This causes an intermittent contact when the unit becomes worn.
    There is a simple fix. From an electronics hobby store buy some solder wicking braid. It is available in a small roll pack. Cut a length and solder one end to the float arm, attach the other end of the wick to a small terminal eye and solder the connection. Crimping terminals are ok once the plastic crimp sleeve has been removed. Then drill a small hole in the body of the sender so that a self tapping screw can secure the lead to the body. Select a small self tapper ( 5mm in length ) and make sure you choose a location that will not interfere with the internal contacts and resistance as they move through their range.
    This will bypass the poor earth condition of the arm!
    Also make sure that the wiper contact maintains good contact with the resistance ( multi meter) and then reassemble.
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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    Fellow Frogger! brycedunn's Avatar
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    Hello all,
    I've been able to spend a bit more time on this today, other jobs took priority and its been a few months.

    Looks like I am only getting 4-5 volts to the sender. The ground looks ok, but the positive wire doesn't look that great. I see this wire runs under the floor of the boot on the drivers side of the car. Can anyone help with where it goes next?

    Looking at the wiring digram for an french built car, it looks like it goes to a large terminal block and then to the back of the gauge. Would this be the same in a slough car? Presumably the wire ultimately goes along the floor under the carpet somewhere?

    On my car I can see the small terminal block in the engine bay, and then lots of wires behind the dash going to the gauges, but I don' t see a large one that corresponds to the one in the diagram.

    Thanks,
    Bryce
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Send me your email address and I will send you a Slough wiring diagram!
    I tried to upload it but it exceeds the size limit!
    brycedunn likes this.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Assuming the Light 15 is similar to the Big 6 in the style of its wiring it will go up the right hand side of the boot into the roof rail above the doors and emerge through a large round hole up high behind the dash (in front of the drivers door). PM me if you like to purchase a workshop manual.
    This may be of some use with your wiring
    .

    .A couple of traction related questions-lt-15-wiring-diagram.-12v-slough-bld.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllenM View Post
    Assuming the Light 15 is similar to the Big 6 in the style of its wiring it will go up the right hand side of the boot into the roof rail above the doors and emerge through a large round hole up high behind the dash (in front of the drivers door). PM me if you like to purchase a workshop manual.
    This may be of some use with your wiring
    .

    .Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Lt 15 Wiring Diagram. 12V Slough bld.jpg 
Views:	810 
Size:	101.9 KB 
ID:	78599
    Thanks Allen, That helps with the wiring location. I had assumed it would run along the floor so I'll look at the roof.
    Bryce
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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    Hello Bryce
    Pleased to learn about the re-surfacing of the Lt 15. As we have said before, this is almost certainly the car my wife and I owned between 1970 and 1974. To see that it's still going strong 40 years later is brilliant news! Obviously, I can't say anything useful about its condition after all of this time. But can you tell me: does it still have those round incorrect tail lights on the rear guards or has somebody found some of the original Lucas rectangular fittings?

    Best wishes for a good run with it, as indeed we enjoyed, way back then.

    Ken

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    Hi Ken,
    Looks like they have been replaced, there are now rectangular ones there.
    I don't have a photo of the rear of the car, but here is one of the front.
    A couple of traction related questions-img_3257.jpg
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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    Hi Bryce,

    Congratulations on your work on the Light 15. Looking gorgeous. I have a '51 11BL and also a DS BVH - in my case a '68 mod. I have been replacing the wiring on the BL in sections - making the loom as I go. Yes the wiring does meander it's way up under the roof lining and down to the front. But it is quite a simple loom and fairly easy to replace when I'm focussing well! I've kept mine 6 volt. Best wishes and happy wiring,

    Tim
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    Quote Originally Posted by Middlemoon.1 View Post
    Hi Bryce,

    Congratulations on your work on the Light 15. Looking gorgeous. I have a '51 11BL and also a DS BVH - in my case a '68 mod. I have been replacing the wiring on the BL in sections - making the loom as I go. Yes the wiring does meander it's way up under the roof lining and down to the front. But it is quite a simple loom and fairly easy to replace when I'm focussing well! I've kept mine 6 volt. Best wishes and happy wiring,

    Tim
    Thanks Tim.
    I'm guessing the trafficator wiring goes up there too, which means I can probably look at both things at once.
    Bryce
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brycedunn View Post
    Thanks Tim.
    I'm guessing the trafficator wiring goes up there too, which means I can probably look at both things at once.
    Bryce
    Yes the wiring loom travels up the right hand A pillar and along the upper roof rail. three wires leave the loom at the B pillar point, each for the two trafficators and for the dome light. If yours has cloth headlining it will be fixed with tiny teeth on a metal rail. Releasing the lining can be done but care must be taken to push sections of the cloth off the teeth and then to pull it free a small section at a time. You can then get to the wiring. It will more than likely be very old and brittle!
    PS Download workshop manuals for traction from here.http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...cationslist%2F
    Last edited by gerrypro; 24th December 2015 at 08:08 AM.
    Middlemoon.1 and brycedunn like this.
    Cheers Gerry

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    That pic does show the car looking very sharp, doesn't it. It seems to be a lighter red than shown in your "homepage" or title pic on your messages. Have you had it resprayed? Certainly looking very swish now.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenlin View Post
    That pic does show the car looking very sharp, doesn't it. It seems to be a lighter red than shown in your "homepage" or title pic on your messages. Have you had it resprayed? Certainly looking very swish now.

    Ken
    Hi Ken,

    It is just the light. The picture I posted up was taken on a very bright day so the car appears bright red. when indoors, it looks quite dark, especially next to my AC424 DS. It is a lighter shade than original, but not drastically.

    A couple of traction related questions-20151108_175122.jpg

    So far since I have owned the car I have not done anything much cosmetically other than clean it. I did fit a crank hole cover and a couple of mirrors to the doors, but that is about it.
    Last edited by brycedunn; 24th December 2015 at 10:18 AM.
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    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Yes the wiring loom travels up the right hand A pillar and along the upper roof rail. three wires leave the loom at the B pillar point, each for the two trafficators and for the dome light. If yours has cloth headlining it will be fixed with tiny teeth on a metal rail. Releasing the lining can be done but care must be taken to push sections of the cloth off the teeth and then to pull it free a small section at a time. You can then get to the wiring. It will more than likely be very old and brittle!
    PS Download workshop manuals for traction from here.
    Thanks, this is very helpful. I will report back once I am able to tackle this!
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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    I see what you mean Bryce. I had it resprayed the original maA couple of traction related questions-1954-sad-lt-15-nbri-1973.jpgroon in 1972 but I imagine it had been done a few times possibly, since then. One thing I did notice is the antenna position. In my time it was attached to the side of the car, just in front of the driver's door opening. I will try to attach a photo. It has been copied from an 8mm movie film square, so it is pretty grainy but you may be able to see the antenna.
    brycedunn likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenlin View Post
    I see what you mean Bryce. I had it resprayed the original maClick image for larger version. 

Name:	1954 Sad Lt 15 at Nbri 1973.jpg 
Views:	128 
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ID:	78665roon in 1972 but I imagine it had been done a few times possibly, since then. One thing I did notice is the antenna position. In my time it was attached to the side of the car, just in front of the driver's door opening. I will try to attach a photo. It has been copied from an 8mm movie film square, so it is pretty grainy but you may be able to see the antenna.
    Thanks Ken,
    Great photo. I notice the car was wearing BFV561 plates... Doing a quick google search I was able to find a for sale ad from Feb 14, 1976 in the Sydney morning herald:

    CITROEN LT.15. Fully restored. X tyres, rog. $1795. 78 2383. BFV561.

    I spoke to a gentleman at the french car day who said he purchased the car off you in the late 70s and he fitted the roof antenna. You can see on the car where the side mounted antenna used to mount:

    A couple of traction related questions-img_3252.jpg
    You can see the silver plug on the lower right of the photo.

    Thanks for sharing the photos of the car back from the 70s - it is great to learn more of its history and if you ever find other interesting pictures I would love to see them!

    Merry Xmas.

    Bryce
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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