DS 21 dashboard
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Default DS 21 dashboard

    I've finally started on the wiring on the DS 21.
    Talk about a can of worms.
    Or more of a spaghetti monster that's definitely not flying...

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    First problem I'm running into, is well, it seems to have been re-wired a few times by people with different ideas.
    For example, all the wires going to the left-hand fender connectors are black (and thinner than the originals).
    So, to get a decent idea, I have to get to the main bundle, behind the dash, remove the tape, and see what goes where.
    Taking out the instrument panel, the steering covers and the toggles was easy.


    I'm stuck at how to remove the rest of the frame to get at that bundle.
    I'd like to remove at least the top part, where the speaker is, and the little plastic air grid to the left.
    Probably the bottom part, eventually.
    Any standard operating procedures?

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  2. #2
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    I've finally started on the wiring on the DS 21.
    Talk about a can of worms.
    Or more of a spaghetti monster that's definitely not flying...


    First problem I'm running into, is well, it seems to have been re-wired a few times by people with different ideas.
    For example, all the wires going to the left-hand fender connectors are black (and thinner than the originals).
    So, to get a decent idea, I have to get to the main bundle, behind the dash, remove the tape, and see what goes where.
    Taking out the instrument panel, the steering covers and the toggles was easy.


    I'm stuck at how to remove the rest of the frame to get at that bundle.
    I'd like to remove at least the top part, where the speaker is, and the little plastic air grid to the left.
    Probably the bottom part, eventually.
    Any standard operating procedures?

    Yes- there are some operating procedures in place. What I'll do is copy and paste an old PM I sent another frogger on how to get the dash out. You'll quickly discover that the dash, once you've removed the bits you already have, comes out pretty much as one piece. Your only real wild card is your radio- I normally see these with a map pocket in place. Once you pull the radio/pocket, pulling the speaker becomes pretty easy.

    You can also refer to manual 814-2, which has the factory instruction on dash removal.


    I'll be copying and pasting this to another AF'r, because he also asked for the dash destruction instructions. If enough other people ask, I'll make it a post in the technical section.

    Curl up with your favorite beverage, this will take a while.

    Assuming you don't have air conditioning (most D's, even here in the US don't):

    Disconnect the battery!!

    The next step is remove the instrument cluster. Now, I don't know if it's the same for the RHD cars, but for the LHD cars, you'll first disconnect the speedometer cable at it's fitting near the ignition coil. That makes the cluster FAR easier to remove. Fit the cable through the firewall- it does not need to be passed all the way through- enough to give slack for the cluster. Remove the 4 screws fitting the cluster to the dash carefully- those corners are notoriously easy to break. Work the cluster out (you will likely have to put the gear lever in 4th or reverse), then unscrew the speedo cable from the speedo head (feed more cable as you have to), and then disconnect the 3 electrical connectors. Lay the cluster someplace where it is protected- they're brittle and easily damaged.

    Next step is removal of the steering wheel pod. BVM/BVH/BVA, there is a chrome strip that bisects the pod and stops at either side of the steering column. At those points, on the underside of the strip are two screws- remove them. Then disengage the upper pod from the dash. Set that part to the side. You are now left with the lower pod and it's associated switches and wiring to remove. Ostensibly, everything is color coded. Realistically, all of the colors have faded to some shade of gray. Some masking tape and a marker of some sort will be your friend here. Also, if you are able, take some photos noting the location and routing of the wires. To actually remove the lower pod, there will be 2 or 3 philips head screws attaching it to the lower dashboard, and 2 4mm (8mm head) inside the pod, immediately to either side of the column. They're a little hard to spot at first, but unless they were removed and never replaced, they're there. Pull the pod loose, then disconnect the wiring, one plug at a time, marking as you go. The pod is now out, and that can be set aside.

    Remove the screws that hold the heater control to the firewall. The control can be allowed to just dangle. You can now remove the remaining screws from the lower dash, which should total only 3 or 4. The entire lower dash should now be loose.

    In the lower dash are your secondary controls for the car- rear defrost, blower fan, roof lights, and so on. These will all need to be removed. Starting with the clock, carefully prise it from the dash, taking care not to damage the paint or the clock bezel. There are three loose connections: power, ground, and lamp. Mark them if you need to. Next to remove is the plastic panel containing switches. Be very careful here- the tabs are very small, fragile, and can be difficult to remove easily. Mark the connections for what switch they came from.
    There should be just one or two switches left, mounted directly into the sheet metal. Pop those switches out, and mark those wires. If there are any additional switches someone else has installed, pull, disconnect and mark those, too. If you feel the need, take photos- it's a hell of a lot easier to have a reference than a faulty memory.

    The only controls left in the lower dash should be your choke and the ignition switch. Go underhood, and disconnect your choke cable. You will eventually pull the cable out with the dash. The ignition switch requires only removal of the bezel. For that, a pair of slip jaw pliers will do the trick. Grip the bezel gently, and twist counterclock-wise. It should easily release, and can be unscrewed by hand once it's loose. Careful, don't scratch the paint! Use masking tape as a protectant, however much you need.

    If there is an aftermarket stereo, either under the steering pod or in the sheetmetal of the lowere dash on the passenger side, it will need to be removed. Most modern DIN-mount stereos have a pair of 'keys' to unlatch it from it's mounting cage.

    After taking 5 for a smoke break:

    We can now start on the upper portion of the dash. Open the glovebox. You will find either a plastic plug (ID/DSpecial/DSuper) or a lamp (DS20/21/Pallas). Pull that plug/lamp. If you have the lamp, make sure the wires stay available for hooking back up- they're easy to lose. Under that plug/lamp is a nut, a star washer, and a large flat washer. Remove that hardware. At the other side of the dash in approximately the opposite location is another nut, star washer and large flat washer. This is two sets of three you will be removing. The third set is at the dash center, just under the center speaker. Coming up is probably the fiddliest part of the dash- the radio pocket. Two philips head screws. You will need some patience for this, and a #2 bit in a 1/4 drive 1/4" socket, or a thumb drive with a bit, or possibly an "L" screwdriver. Anyway you do it, remove those two screws, and pull the radio pocket out. You now have access to that third set of hardware. Remove those pieces.

    -->IF!! you have one of the dashboards with the dash mounted mirror, remove the mount hardware from that, and then VERY carefully remove the mirror- any sudden movement that smacks the mirror into the glass can easily mean a new windshield. <--

    Two more screws, then the dash should come out. On either side of the dash, there is a 'wing', which wraps around and meets the A post. There is a philips head screw in that wing, remove it.

    With that, the dash should come out. You will likely need to work it a bit, and another pair of hands is very helpful. Do note that there are two cardboard hoses- a short one going to the air distribution box from the defroster duct, and a long one from the air box to a floor vent on the passenger side. Now- occasionally the defroster vent duct, which is part of the dash, will get stuck to the firewall sound deadener. If this happens, you can either a) gently pry the duct from the firewall, or b) locate the plug on the firewall just above the valve cover. Remove this plug, and push on the duct as someone else works the dash out.

    Removing the vent boxes from this point is easy. Directly under the face of the vent are two screws (sometimes philips, sometimes small bolt heads) recessed into the sheetmetal.
    Remove the hardware, go underhood and remove the gray vinyl boot connecting it to the fenderwell duct. Then just work the box up-down-side-side. What has captured them is the rubber gasket sealing it to the firewall. A little light penetrating oil may help here.

    Figure on a day to get it out, and a day or two to get it all back in. It all depends on how fast you work, and how easily it all works out.

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    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Thanks to your very valuable instructions, I got it off.
    It took me a couple of hours, actually, but I can see about the day-or-two idea to put it back.



    The radio pocket... it had four screws, not two, and they were bad enough to take out - by feel, I can imagine putting them back there.

    Two notes:
    1) I would advise using a small mirror for those screws (I didn't bring it, but I will when reassembling).
    2) The choke cable, I didn't pull it out, I unscrewed the bezel and left it there - didn't fancy my chances to put it back.

    Thanks again.

  4. #4
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    I'm glad that helped. When I wrote that out, it was with the absolute novice in mind. That, and I've come to realize , as I tell everyone, life interrupts. I can rip a dash out and reinstall it in a few hours on either side of a new harness install. Of course, the more aftermarket crap that gets added, the longer it takes.

    Your notation about the pocket having 4 screws is very helpful. I need to note that. All I've ever seen was 2 screws, but it was possibly 2 were removed and never replaced.

    I found the choke cable is a fiddly affair at the dash to undo. Follow the cable, and you'll see that it has it's own seal at the firewall. Disconnecting and reconnecting it at the carb is easy.

    Anyway, job well done. Now, what was your reason to remove the dash? What's next on the list?
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    The radio pocket... it had four screws, not two, and they were bad enough to take out - by feel, I can imagine putting them back there.

    Two notes:
    1) I would advise using a small mirror for those screws (I didn't bring it, but I will when reassembling).
    2) The choke cable, I didn't pull it out, I unscrewed the bezel and left it there - didn't fancy my chances to put it back.

    Thanks again.
    Don,

    I too used Hot Rod Electric's fabulous instructions when removing my own dash. . .

    One step I didn't follow was the removal of the centre cast radio/ashtray compartment before removing the dash. I did of course remove the plastic cubby. With the dash removed it is both easy to remove the four fitting for that part and refit for reassembly before re-fitting the dash.

    Likewise with the choke cable, just release the cable at the carburettor and the whole cable will withdraw intact with the dash, No smoke no mirrors



    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    When I wrote that out, it was with the absolute novice in mind ... the longer it takes.
    Well, better to say a day and then it takes two hours than two hours and then it takes a day

    possibly 2 were removed and never replaced.
    Possibly... more than likely considering the difficulty.
    Personally I would have considered wing-nuts for that place.

    I found the choke cable is a fiddly affair at the dash to undo.
    After getting those screws out, it was cakewalk
    The cable was bent at the carb at such angles that it felt dodgy to straighten it and bend it again... looked like it might snap. I guess it depends on the situation.

    what was your reason to remove the dash? What's next on the list?
    As I said in the post, "First problem I'm running into, is well, it seems to have been re-wired a few times by people with different ideas. For example, all the wires going to the left-hand fender connectors are black (and thinner than the originals). So, to get a decent idea, I have to get to the main bundle, behind the dash, remove the tape, and see what goes where."

    So next on the list is actually getting down to tracing the wires and connecting them properly.
    Which was the main job from the start, as the car runs and drives well but electrically it's just plain silly.
    I just sort of took any possible excuse to to put the main job (this) off, grease this, change that, check those.
    I've run out of excuses...

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Nice pic

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    With the dash removed it is both easy to remove the four fitting for that part and refit for reassembly before re-fitting the dash.
    Oh well. I'll keep that in mind for re-assembly - which I'm sure will be more work.


    Likewise with the choke cable, just release the cable at the carburettor and the whole cable will withdraw intact
    Well, I did release it, but as I said in the other post, didn't like the look of the bends, and went for the bezel
    Wasn't difficult, I have very thick and strong fingernails.

  8. #8
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    So next on the list is actually getting down to tracing the wires and connecting them properly.
    Which was the main job from the start, as the car runs and drives well but electrically it's just plain silly.
    I just sort of took any possible excuse to to put the main job (this) off, grease this, change that, check those.
    I've run out of excuses..
    .

    Very cool. If you need help, either I'm here, or others like Chris who have suffered through this are here. Once you see how it was designed, it's actually a pretty simple system. One definite suggestion I will make is before you pull it apart, tag both sides of each wire that comprises the rear harness connection, located just above the driver side airbox. 11 wires, and the color sleeves for all of them have turned to some shade of mud.
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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Very cool. If you need help, either I'm here, or others like Chris who have suffered through this are here.
    I'm happy with the Mecanno side of things Bill, but you can deal with the electrickery

    Cheers
    Chris
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    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    I'll be sure to ask for help

    There is one thing I might as well ask in advance.
    This sort of bugs me. When I started the car, the alternator light didn't go off, but it still charged.
    I took the little dash lamp out, because it punched me in the eye, and it still charged.
    It charges because the voltage at the battery goes up, and more if I accelerate

    Now, the alternator is supposed to get the excitation current from that lamp, so that when it starts charging it goes off... right?
    So, 1) I wonder how they wired it and where it gets the excitation from, and 2) how would I go about rewiring that?

  11. #11
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    I'll be sure to ask for help

    There is one thing I might as well ask in advance.
    This sort of bugs me. When I started the car, the alternator light didn't go off, but it still charged.
    I took the little dash lamp out, because it punched me in the eye, and it still charged.
    It charges because the voltage at the battery goes up, and more if I accelerate

    Now, the alternator is supposed to get the excitation current from that lamp, so that when it starts charging it goes off... right?
    So, 1) I wonder how they wired it and where it gets the excitation from, and 2) how would I go about rewiring that?
    Yah, the way they come ex-factory was a little weird. You open up the regulator can, you'll see three relays. One is charge, one is voltage sense, and one is strictly for the lamp. The lamp one is always "on", in the sense that the contacts are always closed. Once the system is up to voltage, the contacts are opened, killing the lamp. It's a common problem for the lamp to be stuck on and the system still charge. Unless either you are changing out the alternator for an internally regulated one or the original wiring is busted up, simply pull the regulator cover off, and, using only a single thickness of emery cloth, clean the contacts. Be careful not to bend anything.

    Wiring from the factory regulator is pretty simple:
    White code is rotor, marked as "R" at the regulator. Strictly a hookup between the alt and the reg.
    Yellow code is stator, marked as "EXC" at the regulator. Again strictly a hookup between the alt and the reg.
    Purple/violet code at the reg is ignition trip. Marked "BOB" at the regulator.
    Ree code is light at the reg, and is marked "L".

    The alternator is equally easy:
    you have your two wires from the regulator. Yellow is the stator, and is connected via a 6.3mm spade terminal at the 'top' of the alternator. White is the rotor, and is connected by way of a 4mm ring terminal at the back of the alt. Be careful here- it's really easy to mistake a case assembly stud for the rotor connection. Your third wire is a black is battery out. This goes to several locations- the battery, 3 connections (green, red and blue inputs) at the fusebox, headlight switch, turn switch (for horns), headlight high relay, start switch (manual trans cars like yours only), and starter solenoid at starter (again, manual trans cars only).

    There was a very good article on how to fit a Ford voltage regulator into the stock Ducellier regulator can, which has the definite advantage of stabilizing the voltage far better than the stock system. No more flickering lamps! If I can find it, I'll post it for you.

    If you do decide on an internal regulator style alternator, you won't need to do anything at the dash. It can all be done very simply in the engine compartment.

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    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Undoing the tape, I sort of liked the fact that the "new" wires have little numbers on them...



    Except, where they come out (left wing), out of 8, I have like 4 numbered "1", one 6, one 2, and one with no number

    Oh, well...

    What would you think if I dropped a loose screw
    Would you curse me or just laugh at me?
    Lend me your wrench and I will see it through
    This wire bundle's a real cup of tea.


    Oh I get by with a little help from my friends
    Mm I can pry with a little help from my friends
    Mm going to try with a little help from my friends


    What do I do when my helper's away?
    (Does it worry you to be alone?)
    How do I feel by the end of the day?
    (Are you stuck because you're on your own?)


    No I get by with a little help from my friends
    Mm I can pry with a little help from my friends
    Mm going to try with a little help from my friends


    (Do you need anybody?)
    I need a surgical glove
    (Could it be anybody?)
    I want some help from above


    (Would you believe the sheer crap of this plight?)
    Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time
    (What do you see when you turn on the light?)
    I can't tell you, 'cause there's too much grime


    Oh I get by with a little help from my friends
    Mm I can pry with a little help from my friends
    Oh I'm going to try with a little help from my friends


    (Do you need anybody?)
    I want you to help me shove
    (Could it be anybody?)
    I'm almost there well sort of


    Oh I get by with a little help from my friends
    Mm going to try with a little help from my friends
    Oh I can pry with a little help from my friends
    Yes I get by with a little help from my friends
    With a little help from my friends

  13. #13
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Don't apologize to Ringo- that is a terrific rewrite.

    The markings are factory assembly marks, hot-stamped in silver foil. Along the assembly process, the assembler would take a number 1, and a 36 and a 29..... you get the idea. AFIK, the numbers don't match up to the circuit numbers as posted with the wiring diagrams.

    8 wires on the left and 5 wires on the right is correct. Remember that you are concerned with the color of the sleeve at the terminal, NOT the color of the wire. The main harness is almost completely black wire where it reaches the engine compartment. The fender harnesses however are gray (headlights) and green (marker/turn lamps) wire.
    Yellow is main beam
    Mauve is aux high bam (the swivelling lamps)
    green is low beam
    Red is park lamps
    Purple is turn signal
    White is country horn (left side only)
    Blue is town horn (left side only)
    Gray is brake pad wear warning (left side only)

    If you get through the fendes, you'll also find brown as a color sleeve, which is your ground.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    There was a very good article on how to fit a Ford voltage regulator into the stock Ducellier regulator can, which has the definite advantage of stabilizing the voltage far better than the stock system. No more flickering lamps! If I can find it, I'll post it for you.
    Perhaps this article?
    http://www.citroen-sm.org/wiki/image.../Regulator.pdf

  15. #15
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimS View Post
    Good job- yah, that's the one. Thanks for posting. I hadn't much of a chance to find it.

    The new new Ford regulators I've seen are a small electronics board about 1/2 the size of the ones Mark and John used, but mounted in the same can. However, they hook up in the same way. The only note is they are normally now grounded directly to thee base of the Ford can. You have to make sure that ground is made.

    I haven't tried the one Mark mentions at the end of his article. I need a victim for that one!
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    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    I'll be sure to ask for help
    So I'm asking.
    Actually I'm just starting to ask... and it's quite a lot
    Please be kind, I started this post on Feb. 12th, which was my birthday. Not intentionally... I'll view it as a good omen, shall I?

    Ok, so, since I'm not likely to get a helper until the weekend, I've just started on reconnaissance.
    First thing this wire, looks burnt, eaten or ground, or all three, and certainly oxidized:



    goes from the battery negative directly to what I think is the regulator ground:



    The fasteners I recovered, soldered a new one, and replaced it.



    The clean one was at the battery.
    Is it supposed to be wired that way?


    I also have this ground wire (screwed to the frame), that goes nowhere:



    and this, which I traced to the oil sensor on the instrument panel, just goes into that tube, no wire in it.



    That ugly yellow wire (actually a sleeve) you can see in the lost ground wire picture, goes directly from the battery positive (no fuse) to the horn relay.

    Ok, so questions:

    1) The negative-to-regulator, is that legit?
    2) The "lost" ground wire, where do I lead it?
    3) The oil sensor wire, that tube disappeared under the gas pump somewhere... can't see much down there.
    4) The ugly yellow sleeved unfused to the horn... ??

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Haha, that was easy I bet

    So let's see:
    This is an Italian car, so the main fuse box is this:



    From left to right:
    1) Parking lights right/boot light (vaguely whitish)
    2) Parking lights left (Vaguely yellowish)
    3) Main beam left (green)
    4) Main beam right (red)
    5) High beam left (blue)
    6) High beam right (yellow)

    Green and red are connected directly to the battery + (see below).
    The others get +12 when the ignition key is turned.
    The main beams both turn on when the key is turned (sometimes even without turning it).
    The high beams won't turn on... whatever I do with the light switch has no effect on anything.

    But the real funny stuff...
    Uh. I made myself a little wiring note, but I must have left it at the warehouse, because I haven't got it.
    Just as well, I guess. I'll have more questions tomorrow, enough for today or you'll get pissed at me
    But ok, one now 'cause there weren't any... this is another place to start looking for things, right?



    Color hints? Any procedural hints in general?

  18. #18
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    So I'm asking.
    Actually I'm just starting to ask... and it's quite a lot
    Please be kind, I started this post on Feb. 12th, which was my birthday. Not intentionally... I'll view it as a good omen, shall I?
    I've always told my customers that dumb questions are easier and cheaper to fix than dumb mistakes. BTW, Happy Birthday! Dad's was the 14th. Alrighty, let's get started.


    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    Ok, so, since I'm not likely to get a helper until the weekend, I've just started on reconnaissance.
    First thing this wire, looks burnt, eaten or ground, or all three, and certainly oxidized:






    goes from the battery negative directly to what I think is the regulator ground:



    The fasteners I recovered, soldered a new one, and replaced it.



    The clean one was at the battery.
    Is it supposed to be wired that way?


    I also have this ground wire (screwed to the frame), that goes nowhere:



    and this, which I traced to the oil sensor on the instrument panel, just goes into that tube, no wire in it.



    That ugly yellow wire (actually a sleeve) you can see in the lost ground wire picture, goes directly from the battery positive (no fuse) to the horn relay.

    Ok, so questions:

    1) The negative-to-regulator, is that legit?
    2) The "lost" ground wire, where do I lead it?
    3) The oil sensor wire, that tube disappeared under the gas pump somewhere... can't see much down there.
    4) The ugly yellow sleeved unfused to the horn... ??
    Answers, we have answers (this reminds me of a song Focus did many years ago...):

    1) Technically, there isn't supposed to be any ground lead there. Not a bad thing though, since the ground path the reg is supposed to take is pretty corroded and dirty 40 years on. However, place no other ground wire there- just the regulator. Going to the battery shouldn't be a problem. Mechanically though, you need a fairly large wire ( say at least a 12 ga/3mm) because you're carrying a large amount of current through there.
    2) I'm not sure. Can you track where it came from?
    3) Yah. The oil pressure sender. That is located just above the fuel pump. The wire is in 2 sections, with a 3mm male/female bullet connection about under the alternator. The idea was to make hookup easier once the motor was installed. The piece you found should have a male end on it, and ostensibly marked in blue.

    Exercise caution on that sender. They are notorious for failing suddenly, with loss of all oil. If it's leaking, replace it NOW. If it's not leaking, keep an eye on it. It truly is that motor's Achilles Heel.

    4) There is, AFAIK, no horn relay from stock on a D except for the air horns, which nestle down on a bracket just behind the bumper. The over-long yellow wire in a sleeve is correct. This is battery feed for the relay. Should have a 4mm female on it with a black color mark.



    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    Haha, that was easy I bet
    Yah, c'mon dude- make it worth my while! This is like batting away a fly...


    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    So let's see:
    This is an Italian car, so the main fuse box is this:



    From left to right:
    1) Parking lights right/boot light (vaguely whitish)
    2) Parking lights left (Vaguely yellowish)
    3) Main beam left (green)
    4) Main beam right (red)
    5) High beam left (blue)
    6) High beam right (yellow)
    Aaaaaaaand I laugh too soon about making it worth my while.

    The 4 place fusebox is the bases setup for everybody, regardless of where the car comes from. There are 4 colors in that box: red, green, blue, and yellow. Red, green and blue are battery hot. Yellow is hot with headlight switch. Now, I don't understand Italian much past the word 'spaghetti', so please bear with me. I did find a copy of the owner's manual for that car (Citronpaper is one of those sites everybody should have bookmarked). What SHOULD be happening is:


    3) green: battery hot to cigar lighter, rear harness (dome lamps +), and ignition switch in (black color sleeve)
    4) red: battery hot to accessory terminal, clock, stop lamp switch, and ignition switch in (green color sleeve)
    5 blue: battery hot to the park lamp switch
    6) yellow: hot with headlight switch to lamps for heater controls, ashtray, lighter, clock, instrument cluster rheostat, right tail, and left tail.

    I'm not positive what 1 and 2 are, but from your description of the color sleeves, I'm willing to bet the mortgage on yellow as the main high beam and mauve as the auxiliary (swivelling) high beam. A simple way to check is: pull the fuses. With your multimeter set to "ohms" or "test tone", go from the headlight switch at red with one lead and touch the other test lead to the "vaguely whitish" (mauve, which is basically a very light pink, fades really badly on these harnesses) terminal on the 2-place fusebox. You can run the same test "yellowish" terminal, but you need to go from the mauve terminal at the headlight relay, which is normally located above the driver's airbox. It's black, and sort of oval in shape.



    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    Green and red are connected directly to the battery + (see below).
    The others get +12 when the ignition key is turned.
    The main beams both turn on when the key is turned (sometimes even without turning it).
    The high beams won't turn on... whatever I do with the light switch has no effect on anything.
    Try what I noted above. It sounds like someone did rather a lot of screwing about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    But the real funny stuff...
    Uh. I made myself a little wiring note, but I must have left it at the warehouse, because I haven't got it.
    Just as well, I guess. I'll have more questions tomorrow, enough for today or you'll get pissed at me
    But ok, one now 'cause there weren't any... this is another place to start looking for things, right?



    Color hints? Any procedural hints in general?
    That's your ignition switch, isn't it?? Ok, fess up. You're just messing with me, aren't you??

    Easy peasy. The one thing of note here is this is on of only a couple of areas on the system where wire color is as important as the color sleeves. That said:
    black wire, color sleeve red: battery in, feeds battery out, color sleeve blue
    black wire, color sleeve blue: to ignition coil +
    Black wire, color sleeve green: in from the fusebox (red)
    Yellow wire, color sleeve mauve : out to heater fan, instrument cluster +, wiper switch, wiper motor
    Black wire, no color sleeve: in from fuse box (green)
    Yellow wire, no color sleeve: revering lamps (if you have them), rear defroster +, turn signal flasher, "BOB" at voltage regulator

    There are also two other wires coming from the switch: a white one, and a brown one. these are your stater wires. In your case, since the car is manual shift, these wires transfer + to the stater solenoid. The brown wire is battery + in. The location from where usually seems to be a tap taken from the headlight switch + in (black sleeve, input for horns). This is a heavy yellow wire, 2 black ends to match up with the switch wires and a brown end to match up with the brown wire at the start switch. The white wire goes out to the starter solenoid connection which is sleeved together with the positive cable, very near the positive battery terminal clamp. At this point, the connection (a 4 mm male/female) is color sleeved in red.
    Don B. Cilly and GreenBlood like this.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  19. #19
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    I have to make a correction before this runs away from me!

    3) green: battery hot to cigar lighter, rear harness (dome lamps +), and ignition switch in (black color sleeve)


    Should be "black wire, no color sleeve"

    This is in reference to fusebox output to ignition switch input.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  20. #20
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Mate ... get rid of that battery from there. Those recessed terminal batteries are downright bloody dangerous when fitted to a DS. The likelyhood of the terminals coming into contact with the battery frame is HUGE. If I had a DS with that battery, I'd swap it into a different car that didn't have a metal cage around the top of the battery! In the meantime get a length of hose, slash it down it's length and slide it over the battery frame, so it insulates it from the battery terminals.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    You're just messing with me, aren't you?
    Sure. Actually, I'm totally clueless.
    I have some basic knowledge of electrical installations, but...
    I'm a sailboat captain. On boats, you usually have a central tripswitch panel, nicely labelled, and it's relatively easy to trace the stuff.
    This is totally another ballpark for me.
    But then, even at 58, I'm certainly willing to learn. More so about these cars, which I grew up on, and really love.

    Cause also, in the whole of the kingdom (of Spain) there's about three mechanics who know anything about these cars,and none on this island, so I have to do everything myself, much as I'd like to delegate some stuff to professionals.

    Anyway. Armed with the fresh ammo you just gave me, I'm going back tomorrow to kick some wires.
    I'll have more questions.
    But then, by the time we're through, hopefully before 2025, we may have written a very good guide to rewiring a DS 21

    Note:
    For the Italian fuse box, I'm referring to this guide.
    AFAIK, it's correct for the car, but we'll see
    Lasya likes this.

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    get rid of that battery from there.
    Yes, I was thinking the same thing actually.
    You'll notice I have cardboard and stuff to keep the frame away from the terminals in the meantime.
    Don't quite know what I'll do eventually, bit I am worried about it.

  23. #23
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    Yes, I was thinking the same thing actually.
    You'll notice I have cardboard and stuff to keep the frame away from the terminals in the meantime.
    Don't quite know what I'll do eventually, bit I am worried about it.
    Don,
    The solution is to fit the correct battery without recessed poles. . .


    One of the connections you mention, you can see in the above image, an earth/ground direct from the negative pole to chassis.

    Even with the correct battery a good precaution is to add insulation under the positive terminal, I'm using a non standard positive connection because I have a few additional connections powering stereo and amp. . .



    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Mate ... get rid of that battery from there. Those recessed terminal batteries are downright bloody dangerous when fitted to a DS. The likelyhood of the terminals coming into contact with the battery frame is HUGE. If I had a DS with that battery, I'd swap it into a different car that didn't have a metal cage around the top of the battery! In the meantime get a length of hose, slash it down it's length and slide it over the battery frame, so it insulates it from the battery terminals.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I call BS. There nothing wrong with the battery, the battery terminals are unsuitable for a recessed terminal battery.

    If originality is required have a look on ebay for a pair of Arelco ternimals. As fitted to contemporary Renault and Peugeot vehicles.

    DS 21 dashboard-arelco.jpg

    To connect the cables from the car you need a basic cable lug with 10mm diameter hole.

    The upside is they are quick disconnect in an emergency.
    Last edited by robmac; 19th February 2015 at 02:03 PM.

  25. #25
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I call BS. There nothing wrong with the battery, the battery terminals are unsuitable a recessed terminal battery.

    If originality is required have a look on ebay for a pair of Arelco ternimals. As fitted to contemporary Renault and Peugeot vehicles.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	arelco.JPG 
Views:	447 
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ID:	66462

    To connect the cables from the car you need a basic cable lug with 10mm diameter hole.

    The upside is they are quick disconnect in an emergency.
    The battery is incorrect, without modification it can't be secured using the OEM frame, it is downright dangerous!!

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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