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    Default Citroen Old v New

    Quote Originally Posted by qcom View Post
    Thanks for that, all a good suggestions and thoughts. Iam lucky to have another vehicle so I don't need to drive the C5 in the summer heat so may leave it for a while. I will post the outcome ... regardless of what it may be many thanks
    I would suggest having another make of car is essential if you own a late model Citroen
    I have 4 Xantias and a C5 and they are rubbish
    The D is completely reliable and decades older

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    I have 2 diesel pugs D9s and they are completely reliable I do over 60K per annum
    The only Citroens worth having don't have "hypochondriac" suspension or Activa which is about as useful as $3 note
    Owners of late model Cits are like the admirers of the Kings new cloths
    They are in a state of delusion

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    D9s Aren't they Caterpillars used for logging and earthworks ? Available in only one colour .. caterpillar yellow ....

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    By looking at the current line up of posts on this site ... three threads on failed C5s the statements from M.Sherman may be correct !!!!


    Pssst !! I won't be the one to break his delusion about PSA !

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    They are early model C5s. No longer made. The currrent C5 X7 has many parts in common with the Peugeot 508. Does it qualify for Sherman's assessment?

    The rubbish Xantia is a modified 405, and in my experience they were reliable.

    If it's only about suspension, perhaps the C4, DS range, and C5 Attraction (sprung) fit the bill.
    Last edited by seasink; 9th January 2015 at 11:32 PM.

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    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Sherman, RUBBISH?????

    My Xantia was so good , in spite of a few little issues , all of which I was able to fix myself, at home, it was so reliable it was BORING, to quote the guy I bought it from. It still drives and rides BETTER than any other car on the road...
    And my C5 V6 auto is simply an amazing car. Really easy and simple to service. I will be continually reporting my adventures with it on this forum, but there wont be much to report. My posts have been few and far between with the Xantia, and now with the C5 which is in showroom condition ( almost) after 10 years on Australian roads... And the difference in build quality from the Xantia to the C5 is clearly visible, and clearly an upgrade. I'm really happy that people don't trust Citroens, because it makes it very cheap to buy the car. Happy motoring everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th View Post
    Sherman, RUBBISH?????
    My Xantia was so good , in spite of a few little issues , all of which I was able to fix myself, at home, it was so reliable it was BORING, to quote the guy I bought it from. It still drives and rides BETTER than any other car on the road...
    And my C5 V6 auto is simply an amazing car. Really easy and simple to service. I will be continually reporting my adventures with it on this forum, but there wont be much to report. My posts have been few and far between with the Xantia, and now with the C5 which is in showroom condition ( almost) after 10 years on Australian roads... And the difference in build quality from the Xantia to the C5 is clearly visible, and clearly an upgrade. I'm really happy that people don't trust Citroens, because it makes it very cheap to buy the car. Happy motoring everyone.
    I agree about the cheap
    If you think the Xantia and C5 ride we'll try a D :-)

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    Default Rubbish????

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman View Post
    I agree about the cheap
    If you think the Xantia and C5 ride we'll try a D :-)
    My first Citroen was a DS21 Hydraulic , I drove it as an everyday car for work and it was one issue after another. One day the regulator just split open and sprayed LHM everywhere. The hydraulic boots kept on splitting, The gearbox Hydraulic selector continually leaked, and I just couldn't find the cause of the leak. I changed the piston rings myself, this gave the car a new lease of life. The doors and windows rattled no matter what I did, and it always looked tired and worn. I never liked it's power steering either. It did ride ok, but no better than a good CX or Xantia, both of which I have also owned and used as daily drivers.
    Now, I'm happy with the C5, it's a seriously good car for what I paid.
    It does not matter what anyone else thinks.
    Cheers....
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    Even as a new car the C5 is a bargain imo.
    Cheers,
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    Today I re read an old Wheels mag. The July 1982 one that tests a CX and it also includes a test of a turbo diesel 505. Amazing to read the miserable power outputs of the then typical diesel,( quote a 2.3 litre alloy head 4 cyl that gives 59 kW at 4150 RPM ( 650 short of redline ) and 180 Nm at 2000 RPM..... and no real fuel economy benefit over a petrol engined car if pushed. A current C5 diesel just about doubles that power output.
    Then I flipped to the data pages at the back...price of a CX Cmatic or 5 speed Pallas ( the 2400 petrol putting out 86 kW ) selling at about mid twenty thousands...now we pay twice the dollars for a new C5 .... but in many ways get a far cleverer ( electronically of course ) multi airbagged, somewhat more conventional but better developed vehicle for much less than the equivalent man hours of salary expense. In relative terms we are getting better value for money than in the mid 80's ... but a classic all hydro Citroen we are not.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzelhund View Post
    Today I re read an old Wheels mag. The July 1982 one that tests a CX and it also includes a test of a turbo diesel 505. Amazing to read the miserable power outputs of the then typical diesel,( quote a 2.3 litre alloy head 4 cyl that gives 59 kW at 4150 RPM ( 650 short of redline ) and 180 Nm at 2000 RPM..... and no real fuel economy benefit over a petrol engined car if pushed. A current C5 diesel just about doubles that power output.
    Then I flipped to the data pages at the back...price of a CX Cmatic or 5 speed Pallas ( the 2400 petrol putting out 86 kW ) selling at about mid twenty thousands...now we pay twice the dollars for a new C5 .... but in many ways get a far cleverer ( electronically of course ) multi airbagged, somewhat more conventional but better developed vehicle for much less than the equivalent man hours of salary expense. In relative terms we are getting better value for money than in the mid 80's ... but a classic all hydro Citroen we are not.
    Nah the diesel in the 505 was just crap .... Go find a roadtest of the CX diesel from the same era... they were extremelly good for there time ... infact they set quite a number of passenger diesel car speed and economy records (I'm not exaggerating, they really did!).

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    My Xantia VSX handles well and I have fun with WRXs on wet days, but for ride quality I really liked the CX. A turbo automatic CX (Maiconics UK produced one) would be my ideal. The CX shape was unique, like the D. The Xantia is nice but more "normal". I like the brake pedal vs accelerator pedal layout on both the CX and Xantia (same plane, minimal movement). Don't know what the C5 is like having never driven one. Never really liked the looks of the early ones and I see very few of the later ones (or maybe they don't stand out from other German looking cars?)

    John

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    CX shape was unique
    Looks much like a Rover SD1 from the same era to me.

    Though the big Rover compared to the previous P6 went technically backwards in body construction and suspension areas. It did get more unreliable in its electrics, which seems to have been a Citroen trait also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Looks much like a Rover SD1 from the same era to me.

    Though the big Rover compared to the previous P6 went technically backwards in body construction and suspension areas. It did get more unreliable in its electrics, which seems to have been a Citroen trait also.
    Designed by the same Englishman
    Remember it was an English man who cursed us with East/West motors

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    Absolutely ....cant see why the public aren't queuing up at the dealers door.
    Compare the value with some other German varieties?
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    I have to chuck in my own reflections on this, having just spent part of the weekend being overawed by the C5.

    I've had a D (Moby Dick) for many years now, and we've shared a lot of miles in conditions ranging from comfortable (albeit noisy) highway cruising to flat out night rallying, and lots of things in between.

    Yes, the D is an amazing car which rides beautifully and is unfussed by any conditions. But my car is 40 years old now, and shows it at times.

    I was intending to take the Whale away for the weekend, but the threat of torrential rain put me off, not because I don't like getting the old bugger wet, but because if it does get rained on overnight or whatever, the rust issues that plague these cars will need attention sooner rather than later. I never thought I'd own a "fair weather only car" car but I love the DS and want to have it for many years to come, so protecting it from deluges is fairly important.

    So I took the Wagon away instead.

    The C5 is the new kid on the block, and potentially the last big Cit to use the ground breaking hydropneumatic system in any configuration.

    On Saturday I cruised comfortably for a couple of hunderd kM to a friend's place for a slightly riotous evening with a couple of mates.

    On Sunday morning the three of us had a spirited gallop through the Bass Hills (Victorian petrol heads know them) to a swap meet. All of us on board were awed at the way the big wagon simply sits four square on the road, is unfussed by any bumps or variations in corners, is quiet and smooth and deceptively quick.

    Carrying a load of seats and trinkets liberated from the swap meet I handed the keys over to one of the mates, a Datsun 1600 and Volkswagen Golf driver. Even he, who loves the Golf as a cruiser, was blown away.

    I thought the C5 ride was harsh until I got the adjustments just right, now I'm more than happy.

    To get the quantity of "anti C5" posts in perspective, these are a complicated car. Most of those that people are having issues with are over 10 years old now, and with the best will in the world we have to accept that the designers of modern cars in the past couple of decades have never intended their products to live more than that.

    Of course they exhibit faults, and if they're neglected, as they will be by the brigade who just want a luxury car but have no concept of preventive maintenance and see the money spent as such as extravagance, they will start to exhibit faults.

    This aforementioned brigade then cut their losses and go out and buy the next new car that strikes their fancy and one of us poor paupers who actually want to play with our cars buys it cheap. If we're lucky and can attend to the issues in a timely manner and re-address the causative issues, then we become happy campers.

    If the faults are too far entrenched or too expensive in time, labour or parts to repair, we grizzle about it while seeking a cheap magic solution from our French Car Enthusiastic peers.

    Yes, I had initial issues with Mephistopheles and he has cost me about as much as I would have had to pay for a similar aged Subaru or that ilk. But as we discussed while galloping on roads that are best suited to Minis, what other car can you buy for less than $15K that offers all of the combined features and comfort, not to mention amazing roadholding, of the C5 wagon?

    I know I'm biased towards Citroen, and like all such brand loyalties that's completely irrational. But I'll take irrational and emotional over financially practical and functionally inferior any day!

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    After doing over 2,000km in a C5 over the holidays, I'd say it is the most comfortable CitroŽn since the demise of the last of the pre-PSA designed cars (CX and GSA).

    The C5 may be almost totally lacking in character or intrigue, but I was totally amazed by how relaxed I felt after 1,000km during one day behind the wheel.

    I still have a soft spot for all the older cars, but given the demise of oleopneumatic-sprung CitroŽns I am pleased to see that the last effort was a good one!

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    And Pottsy, you're in a 9yo, not a current model! One of my annoyances with the press is the way they attack the suspension as floaty on corners, and the Audi and Beemer fans will quote it back at you. Get your mates to do some corners, and float or not, it goes round them quickly enough. So also do the non-hydraulic sprung C5 Attractions and Seductions.

    When you compare the current C5s with their rivals there is real value there. I think there are three matters that depress sales - snob value built up for German brands; a negative, ignorant and often hostile press; and a take it or leave it inactive distributor.

    I was looking at a mechanics' trade mag the other day that had a slur on Cits - "why would anyone want to work on one" - and it was about the highly conventional C4 and a trivial problem! The same rag had several articles about baffling diagnoses and long difficult repairs on German and Japanese models. Anyone reading that lot in a newspaper would be turned right off VAG and Toyota.

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    Most of the C5 issues I've noticed in this forum were concerning the AL4 transmission. And even they will give good service if the thing is properly and regularly maintained, with proper oil changes. Many other Euro cars use the same box.

    All cars and all brands have their issues. I've been driving cars since I was a teenager, and owned many cars since I was 18. I've had European, Asian and Australian cars. All of them were past their use by date when I got them. Probably the worst car I ever had was a holden Torana LC. One of the best ones was an Australian car which had the worst reputation ever of any Australian car, the Ford EA. Mine was spectacularly good and reliable once I sorted it's issues out. Someone had put the distributor in , but it was out by one tooth, so it couldn't be tuned. Once that was corrected the car really flew about, and it was a wagon. An amazing car.
    Nearly EVERY car I've ever owned has need the alternator replaced. The Xantia was the best in spite of the multitudes of small matters I had to address, but all were interesting and worth learning. The C5 seems to be a higher level of comfort and style, and I'm really enjoying the V6 with it's power and performance. The economy seems to be about the same as the Xantia. A big win all round.

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    I think Cx was last real Citron. Lator model is crap. But even CX looks complicated. More electronics inside and things got worse. C6 might be good but who can service it for 100%? If computer/electronics was stuffed then unrepairable.

    BX was fast but suspension is so stiff! But fast even cornering does not tilt like my id. But not comfortable at all.

    I like 2CV and D series cars only but to0 precious to drive everyday. Weekend only
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    Quote Originally Posted by caparobertsan View Post
    I think Cx was last real Citron. Lator model is crap. But even CX looks complicated. More electronics inside and things got worse. C6 might be good but who can service it for 100%? If computer/electronics was stuffed then unrepairable.

    BX was fast but suspension is so stiff! But fast even cornering does not tilt like my id. But not comfortable at all.

    I like 2CV and D series cars only but to0 precious to drive everyday. Weekend only
    I had "comfort" spheres on the front of the BX. BX seats were more comfortable than Xantia, more foam. The 16V type seats had good side support.

    I drive the 2CV every day. Out of all the drivers on the road, I am the only one having fun. They spend all their time bored shitless and watching their speedo so they don't get booked. I don't look at the speedo because it lies. I just look to miss all the other drivers as I do a gentle slalom across all lanes of a perfectly straight road looking for empty spots and trying to maintain momentum.

    Heck, the 2CV was meant to replace the horse. Ever ridden a horse with diarrhoea? I manage to give everyone on the road the shits.

    John
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    I can picture you on the loooong perfectly straight climb up from the Hawkesbury River in low gear at 15k, with a loaded B Double 12 inches from your bum doing the diarrhoea as he crashes down a dozen gears.

    To make his strides worse, the bloke is probably standing up so he can see you.

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    Sherman,

    at what stage did you come to the conclusion late model Citroens are rubbish? Was it after your 1st or 5th?

    My cars are no less reliable than all my other friends cars put together who collectively own a very broad range of vehicles from vintage to classic to new. Arguably, if it were a contest I'd say 10-15 year old Japanese cars might win, but they'd also win the dull & sad to drive contest.

    The one thing that is without doubt is that all new vehicles are designed to be disposable in a short time and if you try to go against this designed trend by owing your new car for extended years (beyond the warrantee) you will pay very heavily indeed. Either way the manufacturers will not lose.


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    Quote Originally Posted by caparobertsan View Post
    I think Cx was last real Citron. Lator model is crap. But even CX looks complicated. More electronics inside and things got worse. C6 might be good but who can service it for 100%? If computer/electronics was stuffed then unrepairable.

    BX was fast but suspension is so stiff! But fast even cornering does not tilt like my id. But not comfortable at all.

    I like 2CV and D series cars only but to0 precious to drive everyday. Weekend only
    Hey Caparobertsan, If you have a BX and you say the ride is STIFF you might consider replacing the FLAT spheres with good ones that actually have some Nitrogen still in them. Any hydraulic Citroen will still go up and down when you run and turn off the engine, but it should be a silky smooth ride on a very bumpy road. I've had 2 BX's, and both rode beautifully. You must have completely flat spheres to think the car is "stiff".
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    I have no issues with C5 reliability. You don't hear anything about the ones that don't break down, the majority. Just need proper maintenance. I remember swapping from a loan C5 wagon back into our Xantia. Much is I love the Xantia the increase in NVH from the C5 was obvious. However they have two downsides to my mind. The brakes are terrible in comparison with a hydropneumatic Cit, and they are too big. That is the real issue with the modern fleet, there is no small Cit that rides and brakes properly like there used to be.

    As for the best one it has to be the CX. They do just about everything important that a modern car can. Central locking, air-conditioning, power windows. Later ones have ABS. Fit a new radio for $260 and you get bluetooth! What else do you need? Maybe keyless entry would be nice but it really is not that difficult to use the key to get in. Then you have all the advantages, brakes, ride, stability, unrivalled ergonomics. And they are reliable if looked after.

    Best thing is they don't have cup holders. When you are in the car drive, if you want coffee, stop at a cafe and then you can have cake too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th View Post
    Hey Caparobertsan, If you have a BX and you say the ride is STIFF you might consider replacing the FLAT spheres with good ones that actually have some Nitrogen still in them. Any hydraulic Citroen will still go up and down when you run and turn off the engine, but it should be a silky smooth ride on a very bumpy road. I've had 2 BX's, and both rode beautifully. You must have completely flat spheres to think the car is "stiff".


    Citroen enthusiasts unite! Generally speaking the Traction and earlier D are the holy grails for me, but 'newish' cits also have their place and admirers. I'd say the reliablity issue is a 'piece of string' matter. Has the maintenance been done? Point aptly made by George 1/8. Is it that late model cars are more about transport - while they can have pleasant throwbacks that evoke the past, they can't really 'transport' you like a classic? I tend to regard anything with Chevrons on it approvingly (possibly just out of loyalty to the marque). But a nicely cared for classic cit is a 'joy forever'.

    Why that burgundy CX on carsales hasn't been picked up yet is absolutely beyond me.

    Tim
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