03 Citroen C5 2.0 HDI auto HELP
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Thread: 03 Citroen C5 2.0 HDI auto HELP

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    Icon7 03 Citroen C5 2.0 HDI auto HELP

    Hi All
    First time Citroen owner (though we have an '05 307 Peugeot) and first time poster here.
    My car purchased around 5 mnths ago had 112, now 120,000 kms for under 4k. Seemed great at the time!

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    I seem to be making progress with the squealing brakes, have replaced the collapsed roof lining, fixed the crazed stereo (circuit board cleaning spray in the 'control stick' switches did the trick), and solved the air-con mystery for now.. but still have transmission trouble.

    Previously I was getting the Auto transmission Fault error resulting in the 3rd gear Limp Mode. Had it diagnosed and gearbox solenoids replaced ($900+) with the later model replacements. Went well for around 1000km, but has begun to fault again - on going uphill and/or when hot and under load. Does not always register as a fault, sometimes chugs rythmically or searches erratically when going uphill. Can complete smaller journeys on level roads without trouble, though often revs a bit high then clunks into gear when changing from 1st to 2nd under acceleration - not too dramatic but not very nice either.

    I haven't been back out to the mechanics to get the computer diagnostics done again, it's an hr each way each time before I even book it in...

    Should I start by
    buying a diagnostic reader?
    attempting to fill or change the fluid?
    arrange or attempt to change the Pressure Switch?

    Common sense suggests the fluid should have been changed, it did smell burnt when I first ran into trouble as above. I'd like to do this myself if someone wouldn't mind dumbing down the instructions for me

    cheers!
    Toby

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    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Hi Toby, it depends where you went for the last transmission service. Some MECHANICS put just any transmission oil in the AL4 gearbox, like Dextron 3, which eventually damages the entire gearbox. I think it must have Dextron 2 or similar, there are quite few threads on this topic in this forum if you just google for "correct fluid for Citroen AL4 gearbox. ( I think that's the one you should have, but I could be wrong.) You need to find out exactly which one you have, and make absolutely sure they put the right fluid in it. The president of the CCCV was telling me a month ago that once he put the correct oil in his C5 , the transmission began to behave itself.
    Good luck with yours, they are great cars.

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    Toby, noticed you are in the Bryon Shire. We used to live in Ballina. If you need to get the car to a good mechanic a little closer to home, I would suggest you contact Jason Clements at Pacific Garage in Ballina. (Mechanic in Ballina NSW | Pacific Garage)
    Jason did excellent work on our three Citroens, including the 2003 C5. He had purchased specific PSA tools and diagnostic equipment. Costs were very reasonable and service impeccable.

    Good luck.
    Anthony O'Brien
    2008 C5
    2007 C4
    2004 C5 Estate

    Previous
    2003 C5
    2004 C2 (now with youngest son)
    2006 C2 (now with eldest son)

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    Assuming a four speed AL4 auto box, the correct fluid is:
    Citroen spec PR 97.36.22,
    which translates to Esso ATF LT 71141.

    Mobil supply it here. There's a lot of stuff in the forum about finding some. It's a different product from Dexron, though many mechanics think Dexron 3 superseded just about everything.

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    hi Toby,
    I suggest you search for 'oil change AL4"
    or similar in the forum pages. It has been covered extensively. Only buy that recommended oil if want to waste money and buy an inferior oil. Its all been said before many times. Search or PM.
    Always worth changing it for a GOOD clean oil as a start.
    Jaahn

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    I've just done the oil change on mine recently. Guide here

    Please re-post C5 AL4 transmission refilling guide

    I replaced with penrite atf mhp a few times then final flush with penrite atf fs. Made it much cheaper. Can buy at any supercheap, autobarn etc.
    GreenBlood and Tintin like this.

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    Thanks guys,
    I'll give it a go.
    Mine is a 4 speed auto, does that make it an AL4?

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Yes, it is an AL4. Don't panic yet, a few oil changes and regular ones after that are essential
    Mine

    CX Prestige
    Toyota Prius

    In the family

    Xantia SX

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    Should be. There should also be a label on the front. It's a Siemens box, NOT a ZF. See 03 Citroen C5 2.0 HDI auto HELP-2003-gears.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by T03Y View Post
    Hi All
    First time Citroen owner (though we have an '05 307 Peugeot) and first time poster here.
    -----------
    -----------
    Should I start by
    • buying a diagnostic reader?
    • attempting to fill or change the fluid?
    • arrange or attempt to change the Pressure Switch?

    Common sense suggests the fluid should have been changed, it did smell burnt when I first ran into trouble as above. I'd like to do this myself if someone wouldn't mind dumbing down the instructions for me
    cheers!
    Toby
    Hi Toby and others reading this too
    I am glad you have seen some other opinions on the oil. I (and others) have posted here previously about using the Penrite full synthetic. I put it in both my C5 and VW van with good results. I might point out I had some years ago bought a 20lr drum of the Esso LT71141 and used that till it ran out.
    .
    But to answer your questions from the first post. "Should I start by"
    • buying a diagnostic reader?
    probably yes to give you a look at any problems as they come up. It may give you a sense of satisfaction to know what is going on ! Will do the Pug too.
    • attempting to fill or change the fluid?
    Yes as you intend doing.
    • arrange or attempt to change the Pressure Switch?
    definitely no unless there is a diagnosed reason to.

    I think it is worth pointing out that one reason for the sealed for life idea is because there is some risk of contamination when refilling or when pulling the pan off. Also as shown here sometimes the procedure to check the level must be done correctly and not as you thought or mis-remembered it. So be particular in your methods and after perhaps two changes in quick time you really only need to do a change every 20 or 30000 Ks IMHO. Some people say more often but I think that is probably excessive.
    To change the valves the oil must have been drained and the pan removed. So the original oil will be about 75% gone. That applies to each change if you leave it to drain for a couple of hours. To do the change YOU DO NEED TO BE PREPARED. The car must be up in the air and level. Also the undertray need to come off. IMHO you can judge the temp with your hand, just too hot to keep your hand on is good. It is not so critical as other things. Having the engine running is critical.
    Good luck Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 4th January 2015 at 11:02 PM.

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    Also, for the fill plug removal, I couldn't find anything to fit the square hole. Apart from making your own bit you can get a sump removal driver set from Supercheap, think it's around $30

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    Let's not get confused about this sealed for life bull dust. Basically it has nothing to do with oil life, it's about klms traveled before servicing is required. It's a vehicle manufacturers way of saying their vehicle is cheaper to run over its expected life. With fewer oil changes etc it means lower servicing costs over that life period until a replacement would be expected. So with long warranty, low servicing costs plus a reasonable tax rebate before the change over, your accountant will be a happy chappy. Remember it has nothing to do with Joe average keeping the vehicle for twenty years and never changing the gearbox oil. Incidentally I read where the Al4 manufacturer recommends 30,000ks between changes.

    Getting it hot is only to ensure as much of the used oil runs out the drain as possible and doesn't hang up in the open galleries and any "nooks and crannies". It's more about getting the box castings hot rather than the oil itself. Although one goes with the other. Also the temp is not a critical engineering issue, taking a temperature reading of the box is madness, bloody hot is good enough.
    The oil level is also not so much of an issue as people make out. With the engine running, in neutral and warmed up, as long as the internal filter is under the oil that's good enough. Tho you can't see that. More does nothing. Its not a splash feed box. So if you put in the required amount of oil, there's no sense whatsoever in adding 100-250 ml to get the oil flowing out the level tube. The car's probably not level. So next you'll be using a spirit level on the box?. Overfull is also not such an issue, but will steal engine power if its too high. We all watch for the drips to end, or start when checking the level but the truth is it's not necessary. Right amount of right type in, all ok.
    I guess what I mean to say is , don't get paranoid about the gearbox oil issue.

    There must be a difference in the internal housings somewhere along the line, although I've not noticed it 'cause I've never looked for it. Out of the last three, plus my own, control valve removals I've done, I never drained the oil first and the oil loss was minimal, about 100 ml or so, all except the last, where the oil loss took on Niagara proportions although it was a bit overfull. Beats me, it's all to 'ard Betty.

    And while on the oil issue, for those who were absent last time, [hope you all brought a letter from yer mum, or five bucks for a pass] it's not about the brand but the specifications, LT71141. Was that the recess bell?.

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    Thanks again all you guys for the responses. Have been on hols but getting ready to try the fluid change. My locals parts place sold me FUCHS TITAN ATF 4134
    is this fluid ok for the change?
    Or just as the first flush?
    Cheers

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    Oh and one more question:
    I believe the AT Fluid runs out to a small radiator at front via a thick pipe?
    Wouldn't it help achieve a thorough discharge to also detach the pipe and drain this radiator?

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    Quote Originally Posted by T03Y View Post
    Oh and one more question:
    I believe the AT Fluid runs out to a small radiator at front via a thick pipe?
    Wouldn't it help achieve a thorough discharge to also detach the pipe and drain this radiator?
    Hi
    There is no thick oil pipe running anywhere on a AL4 transmission. The heat exchanger/cooler is mounted directly on the transmission case. Any pipes/hoses have coolant in them. Do not disconnect anything.

    I looked on the Fuchs site and am none the wiser as to whether that oil is suitable ?? It certainly suits some Mercedes transmissions but not all ?? I would ask Fuch directly and not rely on a sales outlet. !! I could not see a car recommendation list. It does not even say if it fully synthetic so it is probably not !
    Jaahn

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    This data sheet gives the local distributors for LT 71141 - http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/IntAp...aspx?ID=776450. There's one in Brisbane, with lots of outlets around there. Give them a ring. If packed for the trade the containers may be large.

    Onshore Oils in Brisbane also stock Total Fluide AT Long Life, http://www.onshoreoils.com.au/upload...%20LIFE_PS.pdf which claims to be compatible with the spec.

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    I would not use the FUCHS if it was me. And I know its a local car shop and they're pro's and this is just a forum, but the guys on here know more about these cars than 90% of mechanics (at least in my experience). So I'd take their word over a local mechanic/shop who does not know a citroen IMHO....
    T03Y, shanadoo and antonio like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garethb View Post
    I would not use the FUCHS if it was me. And I know its a local car shop and they're pro's and this is just a forum, but the guys on here know more about these cars than 90% of mechanics (at least in my experience). So I'd take their word over a local mechanic/shop who does not know a citroen IMHO....
    Yes damn good advice, heed well and live long and prosper. Cheers.
    GreenBlood likes this.

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    I downloaded the French Fuchs catalogue to see if there was a Peugeot/Citroen/AL4 recommendation. There wasn't. http://www.fuchs-oil.fr/fileadmin/us...quette_ATF.PDF

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    Yes, I do appreciate the advice.
    To add to the confusion, I came across this ad

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C1S5U90/...&dra_ohs=24-48

    which appears to say that FUCHS 5005 is 'equivalent' to the ESSO LT71141.
    Having said that I called FUCHS and didn't find them very convincing.
    I used the above distributor contact list and found only one 20L pack of ESSO LT71141 available in Brisbane for $170....
    So any alternative is still of interest.
    I may go with a local transmission place to do the job who are proposing that Penrite ATF FS (fully synthetic/multi vehichle) is suitable... but I will return the FUCHS 4134!

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    You might find someone willing to share that Esso/Mobil package.

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    On re-reading the thread here I remember the Jaahn has had success with Penrite full synthetic ATF.
    They sell it at my local Repco, so I'll give that a go!
    Thanks again for your patience, and Anthony for pointing me to the Mechanic in Ballina. I'll try them sometime.

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    Guys,
    it would appear that my car does not have the 27mm/19mm drain plug with filler overflow height guide at centre, instead just a plain plug with square tip driver required - similar to the filler plug on top.

    I used jackafricas cached/downloaded image as a guide so I am looking at the same plug.

    I've made a tool and loosened it breifly, a thin blackish oil comes out.
    I'm not sure how I will fill to the correct level other than to replace the same (+ a bit) amount as what drains out. Any suggestions?
    Is it possible it just wants to be filled right up to the top?

    Going for a warm up drive and then I operate - please respond soon!

    Cheers

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    Could mine be something other than an AL4 gearbox?

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    Yes, quite possibly. Have a look on Google Image Search for "4HP20" and see if it looks like your gearbox.

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