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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Default CX Prestige Running Poorly

    This has been going on for about 6 months so I will start there. A bit hard to start and down on power. I live near a local road where you can easily tell if you are down on it a bit. For those who know the south of Sydney, they would know Heathcote Road and the last long pull up before it joins the Princess Highway. Our Xantia won't do that in top gear, needs to change down about 1/3 the way up. Not so the CX, a little lower geared and with a bit of slip in the torque converter it will pull all the way to the top in top gear. When it won't you know there is something wrong.

    1. First thought was fuel pressure. I have a spare and so put that one on. No difference but on a run down the south coast, we stopped for coffee and something must have clicked and she was back to her old self. And she stayed that way for a few months. Fast forward to November and she has got sick again. Maybe that old regulator is stuffed too. So order a new one from Jason. While this is happening I drive her to work one day, get the air con regassed and go to the last NSW club meeting of the year. She is sick, hard to start but when warm starts first turn. I come home late and leave her in the street. Next morning when I go to swap the cars around she starts but idles so slow, I put her into gear and on the throttle but she can hardly move the car up our streets very slight incline and stalls halfway. I finally get it going again and crawl up to the end of the end of the street, thinking how am I ever going to get this thing up our steep drive, but when I turn into the drive somehow she musters enough to get into the garage where she has stayed since.

    I am working in the dark now, but at the CCCNSW Christmas party I learn we have a fuel pressure gauge in the Tool Library. I go and get it and hook it into the fuel system. 39psi, I think too high, got ya. Put the new regulator on and test - 39psi ??? Read the manual more carefully and at atmospheric pressure (engine not running) fuel pressure should be 2.5bar or 36psi. Maybe within tolerance so I figure we have fuel pressure right. Even test with return to tank going to a bottle in case return line is blocked, but no difference. Car is virtually impossible to start though.

    2. Air leaks. Go over the complete air system and it seems OK. Put some plumbers tape on one of the steel pieces feeding bypass air to tighten up.

    3. Fuel feed. The pump was replaced last Christmas, but with my wives help we test. 1 litre in 30 secs so OK. Replace filter just to be sure.

    4. Injectors. They have not been cleaned since 2008, so take them down on Christmas Eve, including the cold start and have them cleaned. When I pick them up the guy says they were dirty, especially the cold start so I have my hopes up but have to wait until after Christmas. Yesterday, refit injectors, replace all high pressure hosing, looks good and she will start with a bit of effort but will not idle when cold. When I got the new pressure reg from Jason he gave me another Aux Air Device which seems to work ok, tested in the freezer and then left in the sun. Put this on too when I do the injectors

    5. Wiring. This morning my idea is to pull the plug off the injection computer and measure the resistance of the two temp sensors from there. However after a few minutes my back is screaming blue murder as I look at the plug that has not been removed in the life of the car. 192cm and the wrong side of 60. I think, if it comes to that, get someone else to do it, but I can of course, check the actual sensors. I pull the airflow meter out and the temp sensor measures 2.5k ohms, my spare measures identically. This is as per the book, so OK. Check the coolant temp sensor and it is the same, so both temp sensors are fine. I look at the throttle position switch and it looks a bit wet and oily. I measure across the terminal which should be closed when throttle is closed and get an open circuit. Remove and there seems no way to pull apart so pump electronic contact cleaner in and swill around, and after a few repeats we have contact so refit switch, adjust and confirm closed circuit. Start engine and she idles!!. Very slowly though and a bit rough. I wind out the idle screw so she idles about 700 on the dashboard tacho. Still an occasional misfire so I fit a set of Bugecords I have, not really meant for an injection car but they can be made to fit, maybe a little better now. Good enough for a test run?

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    6 Ignition. On the test run she goes but not very well, No power, and she just will not rev out. Feels strangled. We drive about 40km to visit family graves at Rookwood Necropolis. My wife suggests the CX is next. By the time we get to Rookwood, idle speed has crept up to 1500 so I lift the bonnet and wind it back. On the way back she pinks under load. We run the aircon and because it is not sunny the pressure does not build up enough to trigger the trinary switch and the temp gauge is in the upper half of the white area. Maybe the way she is running is adding to it. She seems to run a little better on the way back with occasional feelings of torque at half throttle and low revs and sometimes a bit more eager to rev out. I start thinking about the distributor. Being electronic has never been looked at. I had put a new distributor cap on a few weeks ago. When I get home I put the old ignition leads back, and pull the cap off the distributor and spray a bit of CRC in. The plate that holds the coil seems very easy to swing around afterwards. I put everything back together and start and she idles very slowly again, even though it is just 30 mins since it came back from our 40k drive. Idles is very rough too. I turn on the aircon and leave it idling while I pack up the tools. When I get in to move it right into the garage I try revving it a bit, nothing. Against the aircon compressor full throttle stabilises out at 1500rpm. We are back where we started. But maybe have found the real culprit. I don't look forward to the drive to Jasons, he doesn't know it yet but it will be his problem soon. I don't have the equipment to test the distributor.
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  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    the 2nd flywheel sensor ... I bet it's dodgy. I can't remember which. One kills it completely, the other one makes it run really badly if it's bad. Check them in a tub of boiling water
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    2400ie. It has a distributor. An SEV Marchal to be precise. Used to have a Ducellier but that died in November 1997 and I fitted the SEV Marchal, and aside from caps and rotors, and not many of those has not been touched since. I wonder if 123 Ignition have got round to making one for a CX or if a D unit can be modified. Seem to remember someone on Aussiefrogs actually did that. That or get the SEV fixed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    2400ie. It has a distributor. An SEV Marchal to be precise. Used to have a Ducellier but that died in November 1997 and I fitted the SEV Marchal, and aside from caps and rotors, and not many of those has not been touched since. I wonder if 123 Ignition have got round to making one for a CX or if a D unit can be modified. Seem to remember someone on Aussiefrogs actually did that. That or get the SEV fixed.
    I have the 123 in a CX. To my knowledge, 123 don't (yet) offer a CX product.

    I sent my Ducellier distributor to Hebels in Holland, and they installed a 123 "Tune" device in it. Excellent outcome. The "Tune" is the more expensive version with a fully programmable advance curve rather than 12 switched options.

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    JohnW

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    JBN
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    I fitted a Luminition ignition of a CX 2400. Ran beautifully for all the years I had it. Replaces the contact points with an infra red cutter blade. The Luminition provides a very powerful spark. Suggest you locate it on front of the drivers mudguard (in the engine compartment) just above the air filter. That way it gets cooling air.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    2400ie. It has a distributor. An SEV Marchal to be precise. Used to have a Ducellier but that died in November 1997 and I fitted the SEV Marchal, and aside from caps and rotors, and not many of those has not been touched since. I wonder if 123 Ignition have got round to making one for a CX or if a D unit can be modified. Seem to remember someone on Aussiefrogs actually did that. That or get the SEV fixed.
    Hi Greg,

    Like Shane, I my first thought was the ignition sensors before realising it is a 2400IE.

    The fact that you have the same issue across the full range of speed/load conditions does sound like it is ignition related through- have you checked the coil, capacitor and vacuum advance circuit/capsule?

    Another possibility could be the tdc sensor for the fuel injection, but I would have through this would manifest as a fail to proceed or cutting out.

    Good luck!
    Andrew

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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Took our Xantia up to Jason to get the LHM return lines replaced and he suggested might be the air flow meter. I was a bit skeptical but since I had a spare it is only 30 mins work to swap and free. I was right, no difference, in fact I could not start it. So we either have a wiring issue (CX Basis has an new injection loom for 2400ie for 105 euro). Sounds tempting but not until I know we have a problem. Or more likely a distributor problem. That is what I am concentrating on at the moment. It is not obvious in the manual but I am pretty sure the injection ECU gets its pulses from the primary of the ignition coil. This means a 123 or Lumenition solution could work with the new ignition system driving the coil direct. Don't want to spend any money unless I know it is the problem. A spare 2400ie electronic distributor would be very handy right now. Probably will take out the SEV and take it to a shop that can test it and that way prove it is the problem.
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    Hmm. Good this didn't happen in the Flinders....

    Now, I'd be very cautious, as you are I guess from the newest post, about fitting a different distributor/coil system until the car is going properly. If the new system doesn't work properly, you can't diagnose/troubleshoot if there is a pre-existing problem. If a 123 were to work first go, you'd be sweet though, but if it didn't solve the problem, I'd revert to the old points/capacitor system to sort it out and only then add the new ignition system.

    You have changed out the coil and checked wires for breaks inside the low tension from coil to distributor? I agree, a different distributor known to work would be a good idea.

    Good luck. A few people no doubt following with interest...
    JohnW

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  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Check the wiring/sensors from the computer plug before you start spending $$$ The was really dodgy connector blocks under a metal plate beneath the spare wheel in my '85 CX!
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    Hi Greg,had a "mysterious" electrical problem in my previous cx25ie gti.Replaced flywheel sensors.removed and had computers checked,cleaned and checked connections including air flow meter all to no avail. An auto electrician put his computer on the car and found one of the 4 wires going to the flywheel sensors had a fracture inside the outer cover which gave an intermittent fault. Would have eventually dismantled the whole car and still not have found the problem. Cut out and replaced 3inches of wire and voila.. He was mobile and lived nearby but now has a workshop in Penrith,Andy.

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    It's worth checking the rotor arm and brush in the distributor cap carefully. The brush needs to be in good contact with the rotor arm, and check rotor arm for continuity/resistance. Its worth looking down into the distributor and checking the mechanical advance springs are in place. And check you're getting a good voltage across the coil. If that's all good, I think I'd change the HT leads next (especially the coil to distributor lead).
    Cheers, Marc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marc61 View Post
    It's worth checking the rotor arm and brush in the distributor cap carefully. The brush needs to be in good contact with the rotor arm, and check rotor arm for continuity/resistance. Its worth looking down into the distributor and checking the mechanical advance springs are in place. And check you're getting a good voltage across the coil. If that's all good, I think I'd change the HT leads next (especially the coil to distributor lead).
    Back to basics eh... Good idea.
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I checked the big plugs under the spare wheel. They all look good but gave them a good spray with contact cleaner plugged and unplugged a couple of times. Put the old air flow meter back and we are back to where we started. I now understand what the wiring loom that CX Basis has, just the engine wiring loom that comes back to two of those plugs. A pin out of those plugs might be useful if I can find one and check all the leads for continuity


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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Spent a bit of time pouring over the wiring diagram, and yes you can work out the pinouts for the big plugs. Trouble is not everything goes through the big plugs. The wiring to the airflow meter is one that does not and probably one of the prime suspects as it is a long and floppy lead and has been fiddled with more than any other with air filter cleaning for one. The wiring loom from CX Basis,
    CX-BASIS :: eShop
    just covers injectors, cold start injector, temp sensors (2) and the throttle position switch. So to fully sort out any wiring issues the only way is to go from the Injection ECU plug, as DC suggested. Therefore it is off to Jason next week. I will let you all know what transpires.
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    JBN
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    If Jason reads AussieFrogs, he'll probably be on holiday next week now he has been warned that you have CX problems and Andy has Xantia problems, and you are both gunning for him.

    Just joking. He is probably rubbing his hands knowing he has two customers shaking wallets at him to help him amortise his Christmas expenditure.

    I am just too broke to pay him a visit.

    John

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    He already has our Xantia up there. Then we will swap one for the other. Which one will be the toughest job, I don't know. I am living in fear that he will look into the engine bay, see the plug that has fallen off and she will start up straight away.
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    Have you had any joy, Greg? I wish I had something constructive to suggest or a spare distributor to offer but I don't. All my grief, oddly enough, has been with the newer 2500 and that turned out to be the fuel injection ECU.
    If the worst happens and it's a 2400ie-specific component that is dead, I found that CX Basis have parts available which are not listed in their catalogue (the 2400ie SEV Marchal distributor cap, for example), so you just might have a good response to an e-mail enquiry.
    Good luck.
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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    We have found the problem. You know the feeling, staring into the engine bay thinking this has got to a simple problem. It was. In the distributor the plastic clip that attaches the vacuum advance module to the coil assembly had broken, you could see bits of it if you looked hard enough. The reason it was a slow demise and not an instant no go is the distributor was so gummed up that the coil assembly stayed put roughly. I put that distributor in in 1998, and didn't touch it after. It is electronic so no need, right? After I lubricated it the problem became obvious. The coil assembly looks very like the cassette points fitted to SEV distributors

    The solution won't be that easy though. We have tried a vacuum unit off a GS but the rod is a different length so the ignition point does not line up with the distributor cap. Jason is going to fit a points distributor to it so we can rule out any issues with the injection system and I am currently in touch with Henry Hebels for a 123 ignition conversion. With the $A down a bit the cost is a bit higher than when John W did it but still affordable. It is probably the best solution in the long term and people who have it seem happy
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I'd agree with that. Good you've found the problem. Mind you, the points distributors in good shape aren't exactly a disaster, so if it goes well and with new points and capacitor, at least there is no urgency. Of course the dollar will probably fall further....
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Well, picked it up today with a SEV Marchal points distributor from a carby CX. As we know the advance curves for injected cars and carby cars are very different. However she goes very nicely. Power up to what it used to be at least, romped up the whole hill on Heathcote Rd from the Woronora River in top gear at 80k. On the last straight pull, my test hill, easily held 80 with just me one board with more to spare for air-conditioning if needed. The power delivery might be a little more peaky than before, as you accelerate it goes harder and harder, maybe a bit more than it used to.

    The only real way to see if the efficiency is down, up, or the same is to keep an eye on fuel consumption. So it is back to being the daily driver and I'll put 2 tanks of fuel through which should give us a good idea. Then I can decide the final solution. I don't want to be putting cassette points in on a regular basis so it is either a Ducellier distributor with a Lumenition system, or the same converted to 123. The former will be cheaper, but finding a good (very good) distributor with a working vacuum advance module might be difficult. The latter will be more expensive but everything will be new and the advance curve will be correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    Well, picked it up today with a SEV Marchal points distributor from a carby CX. As we know the advance curves for injected cars and carby cars are very different. However she goes very nicely. Power up to what it used to be at least, romped up the whole hill on Heathcote Rd from the Woronora River in top gear at 80k. On the last straight pull, my test hill, easily held 80 with just me one board with more to spare for air-conditioning if needed. The power delivery might be a little more peaky than before, as you accelerate it goes harder and harder, maybe a bit more than it used to.

    The only real way to see if the efficiency is down, up, or the same is to keep an eye on fuel consumption. So it is back to being the daily driver and I'll put 2 tanks of fuel through which should give us a good idea. Then I can decide the final solution. I don't want to be putting cassette points in on a regular basis so it is either a Ducellier distributor with a Lumenition system, or the same converted to 123. The former will be cheaper, but finding a good (very good) distributor with a working vacuum advance module might be difficult. The latter will be more expensive but everything will be new and the advance curve will be correct.
    Good news - glad it is sorted out. My Renault Ducellier distributors used to go for years without being touched though. You'd expect 30,000 km on a set of points, if not more.

    In fact, if you buy the "TUNE" version, the advance curve is fully adjustable. Not cheap but very good.
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Well two tanks of fuel have gone through, whilst it returned to daily driving duty. Fuel economy first tank 11.7l/100km and second 12.3. On the second there were two days where 100% zircon was needed but, whilst she is running very nicely the economy is a little higher than I would expect. I rang the Australian distributor for Lumenition and was quoted $480 to supply the two bits needed. At the current exchange rate a 123 conversion should cost about $850. Whilst that is a bit more I will go the 123 route as that is the only way to get the car running with the advance curves it was designed for and a rock solid guarantee that it will stay that way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    Well two tanks of fuel have gone through, whilst it returned to daily driving duty. Fuel economy first tank 11.7l/100km and second 12.3. On the second there were two days where 100% zircon was needed but, whilst she is running very nicely the economy is a little higher than I would expect. I rang the Australian distributor for Lumenition and was quoted $480 to supply the two bits needed. At the current exchange rate a 123 conversion should cost about $850. Whilst that is a bit more I will go the 123 route as that is the only way to get the car running with the advance curves it was designed for and a rock solid guarantee that it will stay that way.
    Exactly my conclusion. Hope it goes well for you. Mine is fine.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    Well, picked it up today with a SEV Marchal points distributor from a carby CX. As we know the advance curves for injected cars and carby cars are very different. However she goes very nicely. Power up to what it used to be at least, romped up the whole hill on Heathcote Rd from the Woronora River in top gear at 80k. On the last straight pull, my test hill, easily held 80 with just me one board with more to spare for air-conditioning if needed. The power delivery might be a little more peaky than before, as you accelerate it goes harder and harder, maybe a bit more than it used to.

    The only real way to see if the efficiency is down, up, or the same is to keep an eye on fuel consumption. So it is back to being the daily driver and I'll put 2 tanks of fuel through which should give us a good idea. Then I can decide the final solution. I don't want to be putting cassette points in on a regular basis so it is either a Ducellier distributor with a Lumenition system, or the same converted to 123. The former will be cheaper, but finding a good (very good) distributor with a working vacuum advance module might be difficult. The latter will be more expensive but everything will be new and the advance curve will be correct.
    Does the mechanical distributor just plug in the ignition module with no (except soldering diffrent connectors maybe) modifications? I have got one dead 2400i electronic distributor and am always worried when the spare one dies.
    Not that is would make diffrence at the moment because I got a dead gearbox as well and my CX Prestige driving is limited to stationary revving in the garage.
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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    The mechanical distributor connects to the primary of the ignition coil, not through the ignition module, which takes the small pulses from the hall effect sensor and switches the coil through a power transistor that is in the module. Jason fitted a different coil from a carby car as the coil I had was specifically for electronic ignition. I think it would have worked but I left it as he wired it up.
    Mine

    CX Prestige
    Toyota Prius

    In the family

    Xantia SX

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