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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Default What can you do????

    I have been driving the Xantia for 6 years now, and it's really been a great little car, and very reliable. I have had a few little issues with it , all of which were able to be overcome with a little patience and effort, and some occasional help from Aussie Froggers, and especially Peter Dekker of the CCCV, thanks Pete.
    For about a year or so I have been wondering what car to replace it with, when the time comes. I have searched and searched the carsales site, the cars for sale here, and Ebay.
    Last week , I saw an ad for a series one C5, and yes, I've read heaps of threads here about all kinds of problems some people have had with this very car.
    BTW...one of the best cars I've ever had was a Falcon EA Wagon, which everyone canned as being a LEMON when it came out. Mine was just fantastic.
    Anyway, this C5 was advertised at a reasonable price, looked to be in pretty good condition, and was not far away ( the ad said it was in MY suburb) so I called the guy, he said come and have a look.
    This guy is Russian, and his job requires him to move to Germany in one week, so he must sell the car. It's got Victorian Rego till next August, and is in pretty smicky condition. EVERYTHING looks good, EVERYTHING works, and he has had everything done in the last 12 months, new cam belt, new hydraulics, new brakes, new tyres, and he has all the reciepts. He has also had a RWC first inspection, all it requires for a RWC is a new number plate globe, one headlight either repaired or replaced, and one new rubber boot on a drive shaft.

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    So I grabbed it.
    It drives, feels and smells like a new car. It's a 2004 V6, and yes it has the dreaded AL4 transmission, but I'm happy to give it a go for 12 months to see how it turns out. EVEYTHING works perfectly, and I'm really impressed with the level of luxury and the quality of the finish. It has a brand new Calcium battery as well. So there you have it.
    I transferred the rego yeterday, and my Shannons insurance.
    Apart from the usual shopping trolley dents and the occasional scratch, it looks great.
    I still have the Xantia, but I have someone very interested in buying it.
    So, we will see.
    Cheers....

  2. #2
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    A V6 has the 4HP20, not AL4.

    Your seller would know the gearbox as a heavy passenger, most likely. It differs from the AL4 in that it WILL (not might) come up for a full rebuild before you pass 200K.

  3. #3
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    Thanks to some fellow Cit fans, you can read about the box here - http://www.c5club.cz/files/automat/ZF_4HP20.pdf

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Hey Addo, thanks for the correction, I thought all the C5s had the AL4. Which other cars had the 4HP20?




    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    A V6 has the 4HP20, not AL4.

    Your seller would know the gearbox as a heavy passenger, most likely. It differs from the AL4 in that it WILL (not might) come up for a full rebuild before you pass 200K.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Thanks to some fellow Cit fans, you can read about the box here - http://www.c5club.cz/files/automat/ZF_4HP20.pdf
    Thanks, I'll have a read..

  6. #6
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    According to the usual reference-

    1995–2004 Peugeot 406 V6 3.0
    1996– Mercedes-Benz Vito
    1996– Mercedes-Benz V-Class
    1997–2001 CitroŽn Xantia V6 3.0
    1997–2001 CitroŽn XM V6 3.0
    1997–1999 Peugeot 605 V6 3.0
    1998–2002 Alfa Romeo 166 V6 2.5, V6 3.0
    1998– Lancia Kappa, Phedra V6 3.0
    1998– Renault Laguna 3.0
    1998–2002 Renault Espace V6 3.0
    1999–2000 Renault Safrane V6 3.0 24V
    2001–2008 CitroŽn C5 V6 3.0
    2004–2010 Peugeot 407 2.2i
    2003–2006 Fiat Ducato 2.8 JTD

  7. #7
    JBN
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    All the best with your car George. On the positive side, even though it was owned and driven by a Russian, you will never see a C5 in one of those disasterous Russian GoPro videos which show that communism has been replaced by anarchism as far as drivers go.

    John

  8. #8
    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    All the best with your car George. On the positive side, even though it was owned and driven by a Russian, you will never see a C5 in one of those disasterous Russian GoPro videos which show that communism has been replaced by anarchism as far as drivers go.

    John
    Or maybe you will .............
    http://youtu.be/3Dd1z8iZtNI?t=55s
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

  9. #9
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    The critical guide is the Eastment one: ZF 4HP20 Autobox Strip

    I would buy a converter remanufactured overseas.

  10. #10
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    There are a few problems you may have with the early V6, but they are not as severe or numerous as you might be thinking. A common 4HP20 problem is a blocked pickup that starves the pump, so you can sometimes get away with just a pump. Otherwise, an early C5 with that gearbox, like XM and Xantia V6, tends to be junked now. The pickup strainer is not accessible, but you can change the oil if it's not been done recently. There is no reason to assume that it will fail at any particular distance, but it can happen. It doesn't necessarily require a full overhaul.

    If your headlights are just cloudy, you can polish them as you can any other polycarbonate enclosure. AutoSol works quite well, but the better kits will include a final UV protection spray coating. As I discovered recently, there was a change in the harness inside the headlamp sometime early on (single piece non-removable vs one with an adapter and removable), so if you are replacing a headlamp make sure it has the same harness. Wreckers often separate the very expensive HID globe from the enclosure, so don't assume it will be there.

  11. #11
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Have you seen a mixed-mileage or urban use one, that has exceeded 180K on the clock before needing a tranny job? Got to exclude country cars; they are something else.

  12. #12
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    I can't recall any specific city cars addo, but the high mile older C5s almost always seem to be the HDI versions, often fifted with an AL4. Gearbox failure has caused quite a few early V6s to be scrapped for sure, but it might be the final straw for a car that has other issues anyway, isn't worth more than several thousand retail and the owner just wants out of. You do see quite a few 2.2HDi 4 speeders with this gearbox comfortably exceeding 200K, so the gearbox is obviously capable of that distance. There are a few high mile late XMs around, but some of them may have had a gearbox job already. I have an XM with that gearbox and it had a gearbox job at a little over 100K, so I take your point.

    The C5 had a fairly low lockup point on the converter (to help fuel economy??) and that tended to cause some judder, say at 60 going up a hill in 4th, so that may have caused a few people to think they had a bigger problem. I know some cars had the converter replaced under warranty, but that's now a long time ago. Changing to the Pug gearbox software with a higher lockup point was a fix that could transform it. You can also get a bit of a thump into 2nd gear and I wonder if that's not wear of the dampers (balls/valves) in the valve block rather than some inherent clutch pack fault. Certainly, when the cars had a bit more value, a new pump fixed a few of them for a lot less than a full overhaul. They are now at the point where most owners/dealers just pass such a a failure along. The 6 speed version of the V6 is a better package and a model overshadowed by the HDi, yet well worth looking at.
    Last edited by David S; 7th December 2014 at 09:19 PM.

  13. #13
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    What's the recommended maintenance schedule for 4HP20 boxes? My 2000 XM has done 108,000 km and has been mostly a country car.

    Roger

  14. #14
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Change the fluid regularly. Intervals are your choice. When it starts to misbehave, avoid ostrich behaviour.

    I'd also give a wide berth to the "experts" in Dandenong. I simply dislike them based on my own experiences and what others who have engaged with them, have said.

  15. #15
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    Roger, there is a maintenance supplement inside the handbook for the Y4-WH series XM with a 4HP20. It suggests changing the gearbox fluid every 30K. Engine every 15K.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Hey guys, I really appreciate the great responses to this thread, whatever your opinion. This last owner took the car to the Citroen dealers for servicing in South Yarra. Bayford Citroen, 435 Malvern rd. It's just had the harmonic balance replaced, all belts and hydraulic lines and pipes replaced. Before that there had been a leaking pipe , and the leaked oil probably contributed to the deterioration of the pulley. I can't believe this, but one pipe they replaced is priced here at $1255.33.....
    What is that made of ???? CT4014CQ is it's Id code.... That must be one hell of a pipe to cost that much, it's actually ridiculous. There's labour on top of that... that's just the part price. Rear engine mount also replaced. Transmission was adjusted , serviced and oil changed. Tailgate struts were replaced. All rotors and pads replaced. The cam belt was done 20,000ks ago, and it cost $2,000.00...I cant believe this, this was done in NSW, by a different mob. The belt was $210.00, and they replaced the tensioner???at the same time... which was only $737.00 for the PART...so about $950.00 for the parts , and then there is Labour, so the final cost was $2075.00 including GST.
    It's very interesting reading when you were not the guy who paid the invoice.

  17. #17
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    PAS pump to rack pipe set is 4014CQ: GENUINE CITROEN C5 2001 - 2004 3.0 V6 HIGH PRESSURE POWER STEERING PIPES 4014CQ | eBay

    I'm wondering what was "adjusted" in the gearbox.

  18. #18
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    My handbook is missing the maintenance supplement. Might it be possible to obtain one?

    Thanks,
    Roger

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    PAS pump to rack pipe set is 4014CQ: GENUINE CITROEN C5 2001 - 2004 3.0 V6 HIGH PRESSURE POWER STEERING PIPES 4014CQ | eBay

    I'm wondering what was "adjusted" in the gearbox.
    Hi Addo, this is the actual report.... Job number 4 , Auto Trans Service. Drain fluid, remove clean or replace filter adjust bands, adjust selector, park linkage, neutral switch and kickdown cable, remove pan, clean or replace filter, adjusted bands, refit pan, adjusted park linkage, neutral switch and kickdown linkage.

    It seems to have been done twice, but anyway it's all been done. Then they replaced the oil with ... ( Oil Drum 1L Mobil ATF4HP) quantity 4 litres. So, $313.00 for a transmission service. $180.00 was Labour.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger
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    Standard gearbox wording I'd expect ...

    Prices sound about typical full-freight, but it can certainly be done at a lower cost. The timing belt is not a quick job on the V6 and changing the tensioner is sensible, although a relatively costly item anyway. The water pump is a smart thing to change at the same time. Changing the damper is good news as they can wobble about in old age and can be an engine killer.

    As you can see from the link addo gave, the steering hose/pipe harness is quite involved and is not trivial to change. Dropping the subframe makes access a lot easier, so it's not a bad idea to do both the steering pipes and the RH strut/oil return harness at the same time. I was told the strut piping has recently been reduced in price, but it may still be less costly bought O/S depending on the postage.
    Last edited by David S; 7th December 2014 at 08:29 PM.

  21. #21
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    I'm impressed. The tranny has no bands, no kickdown, no accessible filter. The servicing agent should have worded their process description better.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    I'm impressed. The tranny has no bands, no kickdown, no accessible filter. The servicing agent should have worded their process description better.
    Thus your earlier question " I wonder what they adjusted"....

    They probably just changed it's oil.

    Cheers...

  23. #23
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Sounds nice George. Good luck with it. I'm still at the "why would I replace the Xantia and if so, what on earth with?" stage myself. I had a ride in a turbo diesel C5 recently and was suitably impressed, I do agree we can't keep it for ever and safety is marginal by modern standards with a Xantia.
    JohnW

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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Sounds nice George. Good luck with it. I'm still at the "why would I replace the Xantia and if so, what on earth with?" stage myself. I had a ride in a turbo diesel C5 recently and was suitably impressed, I do agree we can't keep it for ever and safety is marginal by modern standards with a Xantia.
    hi John, but the standards are still much better than the local product of similar vintage. ABS for instance...18 years ago.

  25. #25
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th View Post
    hi John, but the standards are still much better than the local product of similar vintage. ABS for instance...18 years ago.
    Quite so George. At 90,000 km, we'll have the Xantia for years yet I hope. It is a sublime cruiser, even if the C5 is better in that regard. And I love big hatchbacks too. And short of a major crash, it is pretty reasonable in safety at least.

    Do enjoy the C5.

    Your
    JohnW

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