Worn Topic, but CX aircon
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  1. #1
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    Default Worn Topic, but CX aircon

    Hi All,

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    It dosent get too hot in NZ but naturally i have noticed inside the 1977 CX it can get hot. I have read many threads on the aircon system in the CX and peoples attempts (and successes) in installing aftermarket jobs including rear mounted condensers.

    My question is whether it is possible to without too much hassle source and install the factory aircon system to my car, in order to alleviate just a bit of that heat.

    I have also read that tinting can help, but i don't want to look like i sing for a living.

    thanks for your input.

    Cheers

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    I have found that a lot of heat can be eliminated by wrapping the central muffler in heat insulating exhaust bandage. The other cause of concern on the early cars is the effectiveness of the heater tap. It can be overhauled to prevent hot coolant circulating in the heater core. The addition of a Holden type inline vacuum tap is also useful. I operate mine from the lead that switches the vacuum controlled recirculation tap. In this way the heater core is positively isolated when the Aircon is under its most difficult operating conditions. ( Full rear position of the air direction lever on the console.
    BTW there is nothing wrong with singing for a living!!!!
    Cheers Gerry

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Your biggest problem by far will be the heat transfer through the windscreen if you happen to be driving into the sun. You could have the inside of the car a nice balmy 15degrees C and still be sweltering like you sitting in a hot house under that big pane of glass. My wifes poogoe 407 is every bit as bad!

    The other issues are:
    a) huge heat soak into the firewall and floors
    b) sealing of the heater tower, it's no good having A/C if the ventilation is sucking 100degree underbonnet air
    c)pathetic airflwo through the evaporator. you simply can't get enough cooling air into the car.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I probably should mention, if you just fit standard factory A/C .... It will work. It does a great job at keeping the gearstick nice and cool too the touch ................................ and not much else :rolmao:

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    thanks for the assitance

    will look at some of these fixes to see if they assist.

    in particular can you please provide further info on sealing of the intake for the blower and the addition of the holden vacuum tap as it sounds like a doable fix.

    cheers

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    In the earlier cars the fresh air intake to the fan housing joint is sealed with a convoluted rubber joint. It is nearly always hard and cracked if not totally disintegrated.
    I replaced mine with a series of foam rings cut from one of those rollup camping mattresses made from 1/2 inch foam. This was reasonably dense.
    I glued each ring together to make up enough distance and made sure that the inner diameters matched the mouldings on the respective housings.
    I sprayed the foam with black paint after shaping the outer diameters to a conical shape approximating the shape of the original rubber unit. No air is drawn into the fan housing at this point any more.
    The other area to attend to is the seal of the intake tower to the bonnet under surface when the bonnet is closed.
    Simply mount the sealing rubber on the top of the tower so that it is NOT pushed all the way down. Then close the bonnet. This should put pressure on the seal rubber and complete the seal.
    Also I attended to with a fresh cut foam gasket was the housing for the recirculation flap, cut from the same camping mattress.
    Even Shane commented on the amount of air flow that came through to the cabin.
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    The other modification that can help is fit a Trinary switch to the receiver dryer. This has three contact positions, low pressure, high pressure and OMG pressure. The high pressure contact can easily be wired in parallel with the thermal switch on the radiator so the cooling fans switch to high speed when the high side pressure gets up. In warm weather this is virtually instantly. Keeps the whole engine cooling system under control and avoids waiting until coolant temp gets up high enough to switch the fans to high.

    Then I would continue on with what Gerry has suggested. Go over the rear unit and make sure it is well sealed so you are not cooling the boot unnecessarily and the fan can only suck air from the passenger compartment. I have stuck a film of clear plastic over the front wall of the boot outside the sealed zircon module, lots of holes there.
    Mine

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  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Gerrys is the earlier setup used in the 2200's. They do appear to flow a lot more air through the center vents IMO ( the dash corner vents are just as pathetic though ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    thanks Greg, but can you please clarify?

    Trinary switch to the receiver dryer?

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    Fellow Frogger! IE23's Avatar
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    My factory AC works as in it operates to its best capacity which is pathetic to mildly effective. I have achieved heat minimisation by reducing the solar heat load with window tinting. I'd say its almost more effective than the AC. With window tinting the AC has half a chance of making any difference. I plan to insulate the car further also.


    Adrian

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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benvv View Post
    thanks Greg, but can you please clarify?

    Trinary switch to the receiver dryer?
    All receiver dryers have a pressure switch. On older installs like the CX it is only there to declutch the compressor if head pressures get too high, and that would mean there would be a fault like a blockage. Really there to protect the compressor. In Citroens starting with the BX a new type of switch was fitted, this had a contact just like earlier ones that protected the compressor from excessive pressure, but included another that worked at a lower pressure but still at a pressure where the aircon was working hard. As all CXs sold here have the Grande Exportation series parallel fan control, your aircon should run the fans at low speed (series) when the AC is switched on. If the new contact of the trinary switch is wired in parallel across the thermal switch on the radiator it will run the fans at high speed when head pressures get up. I don't know the actual pressures but on my CX, If it is a warm day start car, turn on AC, car levels fans go to high speed. This also helps with the engine cooling system. Mine is injected so it has temp gauge with a white area for normal temp. Even really hot days it does not go over half way, if it is just a normal day it stays down the bottom. At present the system is down on gas so it can't get up enough pressure to trigger high speed. The temp climbs slowly till the gauge points at the top of the white area, the temp the radiator thermal switch cuts in. Any competent aircon place should be able to fit one. You need to evacuate the system to do it though.
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    Thanks for the assistance gents,

    Taking a step back, my CX does not as yet have the factory aircon system. In light of the above, is it possible to source and install myself the system together with the suggestions you have provided.

    Parts here are hard to come by so where and at what cost should i be looking at.

    In addition to it sounds like a window UV tinting, stopping heat sink from exhaust etc.

    Again, thanks Gents.

    Ben

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benvv View Post
    Thanks for the assistance gents,

    Taking a step back, my CX does not as yet have the factory aircon system. In light of the above, is it possible to source and install myself the system together with the suggestions you have provided.

    Parts here are hard to come by so where and at what cost should i be looking at.

    In addition to it sounds like a window UV tinting, stopping heat sink from exhaust etc.

    Again, thanks Gents.

    Ben
    its basically all off the shelf stuff except for pulley wheel & SD mounting plate (get them from an AF?) forget the factory evaporator idea & mount a new under dash unit where glove box hangs. Allow a $1k au if doing yourself (SD compressors around $400) add another $1k if having it fitted by a professional.
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Your CX does not have any air-conditioning equipment at all, not even the front evaporator? The under dash idea is reasonable but will destroy the look of the interior. I think you will need a rear unit too, to make the air-conditioning work properly. If you can't track any down in NZ I have a couple. Send me a PM
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Just got the air-conditioning re-gassed on the CX. High side pressure was sitting at 15 bar with the fans on high and low side 1.5bar. He thought the high side was a bit high, he normally sees about 10 bar. Looks like the trinary switch cuts in at about 14 bar. He suggested a new condenser and based on the condition of the oil that came out, a new compressor might help. Maybe
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  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    Your CX does not have any air-conditioning equipment at all, not even the front evaporator? The under dash idea is reasonable but will destroy the look of the interior. I think you will need a rear unit too, to make the air-conditioning work properly. If you can't track any down in NZ I have a couple. Send me a PM
    Get anything secondhand tested as I had one that looked great yet hid a huge internal blow out in the rear evaporator. (A simple way is to blow air into the discharge outlet) "Speedy Air" should have something new suitable. Old Tx valves can give trouble also. On another note I sealed up my front air leaks (especially under recirculated air outlet cover from cabin to tower) and noticed cool air (no a/c on) coming into footwell yet my feet were hot so I took off my shoes to feel the source. The brake & accelerator pedals were like hot rocks! Now that's a heat transfer issue that maybe harder to solve....ps. What gas did you use Greg? Cheers, Adrian
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    Get anything secondhand tested as I had one that looked great yet hid a huge internal blow out in the rear evaporator. (A simple way is to blow air into the discharge outlet) "Speedy Air" should have something new suitable. Old Tx valves can give trouble also. On another note I sealed up my front air leaks (especially under recirculated air outlet cover from cabin to tower) and noticed cool air (no a/c on) coming into footwell yet my feet were hot so I took off my shoes to feel the source. The brake & accelerator pedals were like hot rocks! Now that's a heat transfer issue that maybe harder to solve....ps. What gas did you use Greg? Cheers, Adrian
    You need to seal up the recirculation inlet part of the ducting. If it's not sealed you'll have 90degree air blown straight down onto your feet while sitting in traffic with the radiator fans running.

    In the meantime, try and block the pickup for the recirculation ducting so the hot air can't blow in

    seeya,
    shane l.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    R134a. TX valves have been replaced to suit
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    High side pressure was sitting at 15 bar ...... thought the high side was a bit high
    Hardly surprising since the system was most likely designed for R12. R12 has a much lower condensing temperature/ pressure. Around 2/3 of that of R134A.

    You can spend a fortune increasing condenser size, airflow even add an extra condenser coil. Or you can recharge with a hydrocarbon refrigerant ER12, hychill etc etc and discover that it's a " drop in" replacement for the now banned R12.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    Hi Shane, So you mean to have no recirculation at all? With the radiant heat from pedals I'll have to get a new rubber cover for the accelerator pedal if there was such an item? Its been very hot & humid in Qld. We had cars on display at the Gold Coast French Festival on Sunday. You could watch steering wheels change grip patterns in the sun. I'm about to gas my new system with HyChill as recommended. The guilt trip from anyone in automotive circles is fierce up here. Apparently my whole family is going to die in a fire ball if I do!
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    Hi Shane, So you mean to have no recirculation at all? With the radiant heat from pedals I'll have to get a new rubber cover for the accelerator pedal if there was such an item? Its been very hot & humid in Qld. We had cars on display at the Gold Coast French Festival on Sunday. You could watch steering wheels change grip patterns in the sun. I'm about to gas my new system with HyChill as recommended. The guilt trip from anyone in automotive circles is fierce up here. Apparently my whole family is going to die in a fire ball if I do!
    Have you ever had the heater box out of one to see how it works. The recirculation is a joke if the rest of the heater box isn't working either way So yeah, just block it off from inside and see if this stops your feet roasting. If it doesn't you need to use insulation down there too stop the heat soak.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=DoubleChevron;1305534]Have you ever had the heater box out of one to see how it works. The recirculation is a joke if the rest of the heater box isn't working either way So yeah, just block it off from inside and see if this stops your feet roasting.

    Yep I've got one in pieces from my wreck. The tower is the issue. Why pull cold air from the cabin back out into the engine bay to be superheated and sent back in?? The heater box itself is similar to most. Trouble is it sits like a coffin halfway into the furnace! I know it's not original yet the whole thing could be replaced with one of those underdash heat&a/c units concealed behind the existing facia. Completely block off the fire wall doorway then reverse the tower flow so fresh air comes "in" the recirc inlet area "if" required. I've seen a few CX's with the glovebox replaced with an underdash unit. Even a series II which looked so bad as Greg noted. So consider it like a hot rod installation and start afresh.
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Or just insulate the whole bit that is in the furnace as Shane has done.
    Mine

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    Toyota Prius

    In the family

    Xantia SX

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