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    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Default DS23 project

    Here are some shots of a DS23 that came into my mates panel shop with a huge smack in the bum. Any other shop would have written it off but the owner didn't want that so Paul set about fixing it and that turned into a resto job. We don't call him Paul the better beater for nothing. What he couldn't buy he made up.

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    David Cavanagh

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    I have to ask the most important question of all: did your mate get the chevrons on the trunk lid pointed in the correct direction?

    Seriously, it's nice to see a shop that actually cares enough to do a proper job instead of a bodge and a prayer. That's not very short of re-hulling the back 1/2 of the car. Nicely done.
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    This beater must have done the odd Mustang; he's skinned the back right down to the chassis rails like one. Clever.

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    Amazing job! It must be costing a lot but it is more amazing that there are someone who would spend so much time doing repair old way! Fantastic!
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    I have to ask the most important question of all: did your mate get the chevrons on the trunk lid pointed in the correct direction?

    Seriously, it's nice to see a shop that actually cares enough to do a proper job instead of a bodge and a prayer. That's not very short of re-hulling the back 1/2 of the car. Nicely done.


    Like everything else in life it's all controlled by money. Resto jobs only turn out as good as the budget will allow, as you can tell this job has a huge budget and Paul is the man to do it because he won't take short cuts.

    Just recently he did an original Bathurst Monaro and I watched him carefully unpick and remove a pefectly good rear 1/4 panel to replace a rusty wheel arche behind it that was completely out of sight. Apparently the last resto it had they fitted a new 1/4 but didn't repair the inside panels the 1/4 attached to, the old saying out of sight out of mind. Paul fixed it so it will never need doing again.

    He has done quite a lot of rare stuff including a Detomaso Longchamp that was running in appendix J a few years ago.
    David Cavanagh

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    You only live once .... So if you have the $$$ to spare, why not get yourself a nice DS built
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Like everything else in life it's all controlled by money. Resto jobs only turn out as good as the budget will allow, as you can tell this job has a huge budget and Paul is the man to do it because he won't take short cuts.

    Just recently he did an original Bathurst Monaro and I watched him carefully unpick and remove a pefectly good rear 1/4 panel to replace a rusty wheel arche behind it that was completely out of sight. Apparently the last resto it had they fitted a new 1/4 but didn't repair the inside panels the 1/4 attached to, the old saying out of sight out of mind. Paul fixed it so it will never need doing again.

    He has done quite a lot of rare stuff including a Detomaso Longchamp that was running in appendix J a few years ago.
    Agreed on the money. You aren't going very far on most restos without it. OTOH, if the people doing the work don't give a damn, the amount thrown out there won't matter. Reference the Voisin at a resto shop here in SoCal a lot of years ago. Allegedly this shop had it going on, concours winners, you call it. I watched their body guy do this, I am not making this up: he would open a gallon can of bondo, apply the entire thing to the body, smooth it out, and then sand it off. Once he finally got his result, he cut the doors open with a saw. I started crying when I saw that. I quit 2 days later. A bodge and a prayer on an engineering tour de force of a car that at the time was worth north of $1/2M dollars.

    Much respect to Paul.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Agreed on the money. You aren't going very far on most restos without it. OTOH, if the people doing the work don't give a damn, the amount thrown out there won't matter. Reference the Voisin at a resto shop here in SoCal a lot of years ago. Allegedly this shop had it going on, concours winners, you call it. I watched their body guy do this, I am not making this up: he would open a gallon can of bondo, apply the entire thing to the body, smooth it out, and then sand it off. Once he finally got his result, he cut the doors open with a saw. I started crying when I saw that. I quit 2 days later. A bodge and a prayer on an engineering tour de force of a car that at the time was worth north of $1/2M dollars.

    Much respect to Paul.
    Yeah Paul is a bit of a legend. If you don't believe me just ask him. He is known as FIGJAM ( **** I'm Good Just Ask Me) He once owned a panel shop employing about a dozen people. He closed it down because he got sick of having to work back to fix jobs his beaters never got right, that's not to say they weren't any good, they were, but they were just not up to his standard. He now works from home, he has a proper set up at home with ovens, jigs etc and no employees to worry about, except a part time painter.

    But I'm not saying Paul doesn't use any filler (bog as we call it) of course he doese but he will make the car out of metal and use a little bog to finish it not make the shape from bog like the Voisin. He uses a thick spray on putty (spray bog we call it) to get the final shape just pryer to painting.

    I remember he was doing a DS21 for a guy in the UK who said that he has never seen the quailty of Pauls work over there regardless of price
    David Cavanagh

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Yeah Paul is a bit of a legend. If you don't believe me just ask him. He is known as FIGJAM ( **** I'm Good Just Ask Me) He once owned a panel shop employing about a dozen people. He closed it down because he got sick of having to work back to fix jobs his beaters never got right, that's not to say they weren't any good, they were, but they were just not up to his standard. He now works from home, he has a proper set up at home with ovens, jigs etc and no employees to worry about, except a part time painter.

    But I'm not saying Paul doesn't use any filler (bog as we call it) of course he doese but he will make the car out of metal and use a little bog to finish it not make the shape from bog like the Voisin. He uses a thick spray on putty (spray bog we call it) to get the final shape just pryer to painting.

    I remember he was doing a DS21 for a guy in the UK who said that he has never seen the quailty of Pauls work over there regardless of price
    Yah, I have that problem to a lesser extent. I'm picky enough that I have a tough time accepting anyone to help because I have a set standard, and I ain't deviating. I've fired guys for using wire nuts and ScotchLocs. More than once I've gone to Daffy's shop to fix something for him, and I figuratively kick him out because he's simply in my way! So, at least to some degree, I see exactly where Paul is coming from.

    Nothing wrong with bog if you use it in the correct sense- i.e. to fill a depression or to sharpen a line a little bit, or even just eradicate a small dent. Even the world's best coachbuilders use bog. Just that Voisin was too much for me to handle, even if all it was is a museum piece.

    Hang on to Paul. His sense of himself might be a tad over inflated, but bodymen of that quality are quite rare. Remember- it ain't bragging if you can back it up. Not quite as obnoxious, anyway.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I have seen one of those "build" shows on TV ... They referred to it as "pinking it up" .... "It's impossible to get a show finish without this step" ....................... and they go smear the entire body with filler ....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Yah, I have that problem to a lesser extent. I'm picky enough that I have a tough time accepting anyone to help because I have a set standard, and I ain't deviating. I've fired guys for using wire nuts and ScotchLocs. More than once I've gone to Daffy's shop to fix something for him, and I figuratively kick him out because he's simply in my way! So, at least to some degree, I see exactly where Paul is coming from.

    Nothing wrong with bog if you use it in the correct sense- i.e. to fill a depression or to sharpen a line a little bit, or even just eradicate a small dent. Even the world's best coachbuilders use bog. Just that Voisin was too much for me to handle, even if all it was is a museum piece.

    Hang on to Paul. His sense of himself might be a tad over inflated, but bodymen of that quality are quite rare. Remember- it ain't bragging if you can back it up. Not quite as obnoxious, anyway.
    He is a very funny guy, we all recon he is permantly high on paint fumes and he does earn his bragging rights.

    The problem with museum pieces is that we expect them to be perfect and don't understand that tools were not very acurate when these cars were made. I bet that Viosins panel gaps were not very good to start with but after it's been restored people expect it to be perfect. I bet there would be an uproar if there were any ripples in the body yet there would have been when it was new.

    This car Paul is doing will have a paint finish and panel gaps much better than Citroen could ever hope for and to me that spoils it a little bit. I remember he once googled DS panel gaps and found there was no set measurement so he got a group of us around there to tell him what was acceptable and what wasn't.
    David Cavanagh

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I have seen one of those "build" shows on TV ... They referred to it as "pinking it up" .... "It's impossible to get a show finish without this step" ....................... and they go smear the entire body with filler ....
    Which one was it Shane? Overhaulin'? Pimp (Slap) My Ride? American Hot Rod? BTW, I knew Boyd Coddington. The less I say about him and his crew, the better I look.

    There's a new show produced in Canada I like: Restoration Garage. No uncontrollable screaming, no gratuitous throwing of tools, no idiotic pranks. Everyone understands there is a job to do, and they generally get on with it. First few episodes are available on YouTube. The Bugatti Aerolithe is jaw droppingly beautiful.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Which one was it Shane? Overhaulin'? Pimp (Slap) My Ride? American Hot Rod? BTW, I knew Boyd Coddington. The less I say about him and his crew, the better I look.

    There's a new show produced in Canada I like: Restoration Garage. No uncontrollable screaming, no gratuitous throwing of tools, no idiotic pranks. Everyone understands there is a job to do, and they generally get on with it. First few episodes are available on YouTube. The Bugatti Aerolithe is jaw droppingly beautiful.
    I reckon you got it in one... It's been a couple of years, but I reckon it was American Hot Rod... Boyd Coddington. They also love to show electrical terminals in vice ... heated with a propane torch full of melted solder .... and would shove a stone cold wire into it....... "professional at work here" ...... Bugger me.... You can't stick a chunky stone cold lump of copper into melted solder and call it a "soldered joint"

    seeya,
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I reckon you got it in one... It's been a couple of years, but I reckon it was American Hot Rod... Boyd Coddington. They also love to show electrical terminals in vice ... heated with a propane torch full of melted solder .... and would shove a stone cold wire into it....... "professional at work here" ...... Bugger me.... You can't stick a chunky stone cold lump of copper into melted solder and call it a "soldered joint"

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I can't watch that program- watching some of the monkey sh*t going on actually makes me violently angry. I couldn't possibly in my wildest dreams disrespect my employees or my customers like that.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    I can't watch that program- watching some of the monkey sh*t going on actually makes me violently angry. I couldn't possibly in my wildest dreams disrespect my employees or my customers like that.

    Some of those shows are so ridiculous. My wife watches those cooking ones.... If someone screamed at threatened me like that they'd have a fist in the face within about 90seconds... It doesn't make good TV, it makes unwatchable garbage that I refuse have see.

    seeya,
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Maybe they should do a series like "Grand Designs Revisited" where they catch up with the owner of the pimped car about a year later - to find out what went wrong.
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    Why did you have to remind me of that "sports jacket with joggers" turkey? Sartorial excrement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    He is a very funny guy, we all recon he is permantly high on paint fumes and he does earn his bragging rights.

    The problem with museum pieces is that we expect them to be perfect and don't understand that tools were not very acurate when these cars were made. I bet that Viosins panel gaps were not very good to start with but after it's been restored people expect it to be perfect. I bet there would be an uproar if there were any ripples in the body yet there would have been when it was new.

    This car Paul is doing will have a paint finish and panel gaps much better than Citroen could ever hope for and to me that spoils it a little bit. I remember he once googled DS panel gaps and found there was no set measurement so he got a group of us around there to tell him what was acceptable and what wasn't.
    It's a really hard call to make isn't Dave?
    As soon as you start to renew a car anything neglected stands out, going the whole hog can be too much but where to draw the line?

    Panel gaps on a late D were very hit and miss, some cars from the factory were spot on others very so so, probably very dependent on what panels came down the production line and if the workers were having a good day or not. Same can be said for the mechanicals, I've driven virtually brand new cars that would have been only months apart in production and they were completely different in feel.

    When rebuilding I guess we aim for the best we can, gaps of around 8mm - 9mm is about as good as it gets and quite a challenge at that, having said that, cars with the door embellishers above the lower swage line (Pallas) would probably not tolerate a closer gap anyway, closer being a hindrance to the door opening. I think whatever, a consistent gap looks better than variations from panel to panel.

    As to using filler (bog), I doubt there is a D on the road after 40 years that hasn't taken liberties with Bertoni's original shape . . .

    Your mate is definitely sympathetic to the D, his customer is fortunate, not too many shops would have taken on this project. Thanks for posting the images, would love to see more as the car moves toward completion

    Cheers
    Chris
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    there's a shard load of work on this cars tail, just proves again what a bingle is capable of on a lovely D.
    OUCH!
    would love to know what the bill comes to!
    It also highlights the dread of having a beautiful car cop what is potentially out there on the horizon. the pessimist in me knows these things are just a matter of time, disturbing when you put so much effort into saving them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    It's a really hard call to make isn't Dave?
    As soon as you start to renew a car anything neglected stands out, going the whole hog can be too much but where to draw the line?

    Panel gaps on a late D were very hit and miss, some cars from the factory were spot on others very so so, probably very dependent on what panels came down the production line and if the workers were having a good day or not. Same can be said for the mechanicals, I've driven virtually brand new cars that would have been only months apart in production and they were completely different in feel.

    When rebuilding I guess we aim for the best we can, gaps of around 8mm - 9mm is about as good as it gets and quite a challenge at that, having said that, cars with the door embellishers above the lower swage line (Pallas) would probably not tolerate a closer gap anyway, closer being a hindrance to the door opening. I think whatever, a consistent gap looks better than variations from panel to panel.

    As to using filler (bog), I doubt there is a D on the road after 40 years that hasn't taken liberties with Bertoni's original shape . . .

    Your mate is definitely sympathetic to the D, his customer is fortunate, not too many shops would have taken on this project. Thanks for posting the images, would love to see more as the car moves toward completion

    Cheers
    Chris

    That's about what we all agreed on, about 8-9mm gaps so good to see we got that right, there's plenty of room to move if its to tight.
    Personally Id rather see an original unrestored car rather than this but with such a huge kick up the bum I'm so glad the car is being saved and done by someone who is a perfectionist.

    forumnoreason you don't really want to know what the bill come to. I'm affraid to ask but Shannons is picking up the tab for most of it.
    David Cavanagh

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