Am I just being daft? Considering the purchase of a DS23
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 48
Like Tree15Likes

Thread: Am I just being daft? Considering the purchase of a DS23

  1. #1
    Member julian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    102

    Default Am I just being daft? Considering the purchase of a DS23

    Hi folks.

    Advertisement


    It has come to my attention that there exists a DS23 in our fine country that may be wanting a new owner shortly. I have just finished a long university degree and am desperate for a project.
    I've been through literally dozens of cheap and cheerful Renaults and Peugeots. I can do most mechanical work myself, enjoy the challenge and have an eye for detail. Obsession is my thing.

    The car in question will run and can be had for what appears a fair price. It will require some considerable work to make it a beautiful car but there exists a strong foundation for such a project.

    Can anyone shed any light on what kind of future this would yield? Is it likely to be a misery of parts searching, hidden rust traps and emails of "Sorry, no longer available".

    Any anecdote or experience is appreciated. I've been on this site since I was 16 and it continues to be the source of wisdom and knowledge, so thanks in advance.
    1968 Renault 10
    1977 Mercedes Benz 300D

  2. #2
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Don't remind me!
    Posts
    16,609

    Default

    If you have a three car garage and a spare $20K coming along for the resto, go for it. That said, Australians still seem to break Dees far less rusty than the UK crowd would consider terminal.

  3. #3
    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Coolum Beach
    Posts
    2,050

    Default

    You'll never go wrong buying a DS23, unless it is a terminal rust bucket. Anything else is fixable reasonably easily. Parts are now available all over the world, some are quite reasonable.

    If a DS23 I would recommend a 5 speed manual with carburettor, to start your first Citroen project. I started with a DS 23 injection, automatique with aircon...and the amazing thing is that - with a great deal of help from people on this forum, and some brilliant mechanics here in Brisbane - the car is now almost totally restored. Also DS's have now increased sharply in value and there is a good chance you will recoup the money you spent on them if ever you sell. This was not always the case where in the past you would spend heaps and get nothing in return.

    One word of caution though, once you make the jump to Citroen, there is no coming back and no other car will satisfy in the same way.

    Good luck!
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

    DS23 IE Pallas Automatique Borg Warner
    C5 X7 163 Exclusive Automatique AM6
    C3 II 2010 Automatique AL4
    Peugeot Boxer Van hired from T.....y, that was manual!
    and bloody good too!

  4. #4
    Member julian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    102

    Default

    It is a wagon, if that changes anything.

    It is straight with small areas of rust well within my capacity to repair properly.

    Addo, $20,000 is a lot. Other than paint and labour for mechanical/bodywork where does this restoration money actually go?
    1968 Renault 10
    1977 Mercedes Benz 300D

  5. #5
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Don't remind me!
    Posts
    16,609

    Default

    Sheetmetal. Once you start paying people who can fabricate and TIG, it goes out the window very quickly, plus you have the landed cost of repair sections. I've seen and borne the cost of under-informed repair/restoration work. The other problem with Sydney is cost of living (and the expectations thence, of workers) forces up shop rates. You might well find equivalent restorers are cheaper in (say) South Australia.

  6. #6
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warrnambool
    Posts
    2,412

    Default

    Are you sure you know where all the rust is? They hide rust well. The closer you look, the more you find. Rust in the panels is relatively easy to fix. Rust in the frame is time-consuming and potentially expensive to repair.

    Roger

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    1,053

    Default

    Fully concur.
    Everything but rust is "do-able" at some sort of reasonable cost.

    Serious structural rust is a big job.
    If it has escaped that problem, it is just time, patience..... and more money.

    But rewarding.

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Stamford, UK
    Posts
    352

    Default

    It's best to double check the rear inner wings on a Safari, especially the bit below the rear side windows on the inside. Mud and damp collects underneath and the metal is thin here. I was dead lucky about 15 years ago and picked up some OEM inner wings, but I've never seen any for sale anywhere in Europe since. There were some whole rear side sections remanufactured back then, but I haven't seen any of those for a while.

    Also I'd pull up the rear seat panel and have a look at the floor around the petrol tank and pipe entry if you can. Water tends to get in and through the roof seal in heavy rain, then find its way down to collect in the lowest points. If its dry underneath the carpets you'll probably be ok!
    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
    1972 SM 2.7 carb
    1972 DS21 EFI

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ici.
    Posts
    2,667

    Default

    Then of course there is every other single part on the car. They are all over 37 years old now so think about that. Buy it and become obsessed like all the maddies on here! Do it ( best Arnie impersonation!).
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 28th September 2014 at 09:14 PM. Reason: maths!

  10. #10
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,543

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    Then of course there is every other single part on the car. They are all over 42 years old now so think about that. Buy it and become obsessed like all the maddies on here! Do it ( best Arnie impersonation!).
    You just had to. You couldn't contain yourself.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    1,955

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by julian View Post
    It is a wagon, if that changes anything.
    Nuff said. Pull the trigger.



    Via the aussiefrogs App

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Broom
    Posts
    819

    Default

    1974 CITROEN D SPECIAL DELUXE in COUTTS CROSSING NSW FOR SALE - JustCars.com.au

    This car looks to be a pretty good starting point, and it is the simpler of the configurations available. I had a D special for many years and it proved to be a fantastic reliable car and still very nimble in modern traffic. I would look at a few, a test drive will quickly help identify a good car. It's been said many times, but, finding the best car you can afford is good advice. A DS in good condition will benefit from ongoing maintenance and upgrades, particularly if you're obsessive. There will no doubt always be things that can be put right/improved. Buying a DS restoration project as a first Citroen may not be as rewarding as you expect, unless you have plenty of space and time..... and money.

  13. #13
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,257

    Icon12

    Quote Originally Posted by julian View Post
    Hi folks.

    It has come to my attention that there exists a DS23 in our fine country that may be wanting a new owner shortly. I have just finished a long university degree and am desperate for a project.
    I've been through literally dozens of cheap and cheerful Renaults and Peugeots. I can do most mechanical work myself, enjoy the challenge and have an eye for detail. Obsession is my thing.

    The car in question will run and can be had for what appears a fair price. It will require some considerable work to make it a beautiful car but there exists a strong foundation for such a project.

    Can anyone shed any light on what kind of future this would yield? Is it likely to be a misery of parts searching, hidden rust traps and emails of "Sorry, no longer available".

    Any anecdote or experience is appreciated. I've been on this site since I was 16 and it continues to be the source of wisdom and knowledge, so thanks in advance.
    Hi Julian,

    I'll start by saying you have youth on your side, in context I'm 6 years into my project and just beginning to see light at the end of the tunnel, if like me your intention is to do most of the work yourself prepare now for the long haul.

    We would really need to know more about the intended car, as Addo has pointed out a basket case here is still seen as viable in Europe. If you enter into a project D with the intention of making a profit forget it, even with values improving you are way better to buy a car that has been looked after or restored by an enthusiast. If your intention is to become part of a community and go through a significant learning curve and genuinely enjoy tinkering a D will reward 10 fold.

    Just about any D will swallow the nominated $20,000, certainly a car that has not been in regular use for some time. If you start by just getting the car reliable. Let's presume the motor/ gearbox etc are serviceable in the short term but may need work down the track. Budget for in your case 6 rebuilt spheres (23 Safari will have the extra brake accumulator), Rebuilt HP pump, steering rack, starter motor, alternator/regulator, waterpump, exhaust, many and varied rubber hydraulic components etc. Let's say around 5 -7 grand. Correct tyres i.e. size/load rating etc. around $1000 - 2500.

    Now forget the cosmetic outer panels for the moment, these need to be stripped off and stored, how much rust is hiding in the hull? If minimal and you outsource allow say $3 - 5,000. If extensive how deep are your pockets??

    Bare in mind that whilst the Safari shares many parts with the sedan, many more are exclusive to the wagon, essentially everything from the front doors back, rear doors yes, rear door glass no. Parts will be a little more difficult to source for the wagon given their rarity.

    Making the car pretty, who knows? That could easily swallow the nominated $20,000, panel, paint, upholstery and the myriad of tinsel that might need refurbished or replaced.

    It really depends how far you want to go, but you really need to make that call early, it will very much influence how you proceed. Very few of us have a real budget before we start, (that might be the end of the dream before it starts) if you are comfortable with taking your time, you'll find the dollars as they are required a couple of hundred here and there as you go. I started with a spreadsheet to keep track of dollars spent but arrived at a point where I was was too committed and the dollars were no longer relevant if that makes sense?

    Are you being daft? Not if you have done your research and go into this purchase with your eyes wide open. One things for sure, you're in good company here (we're all daft)

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  14. #14
    Member julian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    102

    Default

    Hi everyone, thanks for your comments and advice.

    Thanks you, Chris in particular for taking the time to write a long response.

    I have been itching for a project for a while and have been without a classic for a while. I am moving away from Sydney to a large rural centre and have guaranteed work for the next few years. Taking on a project at this point is more a matter of when rather than if. I have spent a few years playing with classic Mercedes and being a student this also had to double as a commuting car meaning I had to make sure it would reliably run.

    I enjoy the occupation that comes with a restoration and it would be welcome relief for me to have a project. I love this forum and was very active before the crash- some might recall my long thread in the Peugeot sub-thread about changing the Lucas electronic pump to the mechanical Bosch on a 406 STDT. I'd be very active and need lots of tips from the pros if I got this car...

    I'll get some more details and get back on here once I am armed thus.
    1968 Renault 10
    1977 Mercedes Benz 300D

  15. #15
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,543

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by julian View Post
    Hi everyone, thanks for your comments and advice.

    Thanks you, Chris in particular for taking the time to write a long response.

    I have been itching for a project for a while and have been without a classic for a while. I am moving away from Sydney to a large rural centre and have guaranteed work for the next few years. Taking on a project at this point is more a matter of when rather than if. I have spent a few years playing with classic Mercedes and being a student this also had to double as a commuting car meaning I had to make sure it would reliably run.

    I enjoy the occupation that comes with a restoration and it would be welcome relief for me to have a project. I love this forum and was very active before the crash- some might recall my long thread in the Peugeot sub-thread about changing the Lucas electronic pump to the mechanical Bosch on a 406 STDT. I'd be very active and need lots of tips from the pros if I got this car...

    I'll get some more details and get back on here once I am armed thus.
    It seems you have a couple of advantages. To start with, you've not only played with classics, you've worked on French stuff. You have a general idea of the mindset that permeates French motoring. A D is not where I would start most 'noobs', which you obviously aren't. You've also had at least a couple of relatively complicated cars- a Mercedes 123 E-Klasse is admirable indeed, but it will test your skills. Help is available here, as Chris so rightly points out. You won't lack for honest advice from skilled enthusiasts here.

    From what I've seen, the wagons are increasing in value faster than the sedans. If Daffy ever gets to posting them, some pics of his wagon will inspire. Mort Subite has a gorgeous all-black livery wagon. Richo took an already fine wagon and did the near-impossible by converting it to BVH.

    Literature such as manuals are available on line by the metric ton load. I'll dig up some of the more useful addresses for you a bit later. Shane here (Double Chevron) I think can issue you a CD with the all-important 814 1&2 on it. You will need it. If you can pick your way through French, so much the better.

    Don't listen to my ex Governor- dude is a pitiable wuss. Instead, listen to your heart. Just be certain your heart is in agreement with your head.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,393

    Default

    Hi Julian, i don't know where you are in Sydney but I am always happy to meet up and chat all things Citroen !

    PM sent.
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Chermside West Brisbane Australia
    Posts
    456

    Default

    I always consider the "smile per miles" when making an irresponsible car purchase. Once it's finally going you'll be grinning
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

  18. #18
    Member julian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    102

    Default

    Thanks to everyone for the advice.

    I will update the brains trust when I jump on the next project, and hopefully start the adventure with a dedicated thread.

    Stay tuned.
    1968 Renault 10
    1977 Mercedes Benz 300D

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    1,955

    Default

    Here.

    Via the aussiefrogs App
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Am I just being daft? Considering the purchase of a DS23-1411949044920.jpg  

  20. #20
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,749

    Default

    Just get one of the local DS gurus to check it out for you .... If they give it the thumbs up ...> GO FOR IT The best money you can always spend is paying someone that knows the cars to check them out for you!

    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  21. #21
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,543

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    Here.

    Via the aussiefrogs App
    Uhhhhh... that's more Daffy than D. I was looking to inspire Julian, not scare holy hell out of him.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  22. #22
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,543

    Default

    Alrighty! As promised, some of the better links for information:

    https://sites.google.com/site/citroenpublicationslist/ This is the manual list you want. Pay special attention to 814 (the English D Series shop manual) 611 (the parts manual for the late 3-dial cars) and 583 vols 1-5 (essentially the same as 814, but better detail in French). There are also links to other bits of information here.

    Bienvenue Everyone is in awe of the Reynolds/DeLange Original DS book. It's worth having in your library if you can cough up the 150-350.00 a copy will cost. But this site is I think immensely more detailed, gives pics that you normally will be hard-pressed to find anywhere else, and best of all, its a free labor of love. It isn't hard to navigate, and the amount of information here really is gigantic.

    Documentations Citroën DS ID Here is where your rudimentary French will be handy. Factory service bulletins, notes, maintenance sheets, tech from other companies that serviced the cars and the tooling for them. I get lost here time-wise just reading the tech notes for electrical service.

    take a look into "citr'on paper.it" The claim to fame here is the vast amount of owners manuals. You will find something very close to what you need if you don't have the physical copy. I just like looking at the old stuff.

    These are the most useful sites I've found in 6+ years of actively trolling for DS manuals.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    1,955

    Default

    I cannot walk or drive a car today. You should come over and take me for a ride in the chick magnet.
    Lemme warn you Julian. These cars attract attention.

    Via the aussiefrogs App

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    1,955

    Default

    Here is another one. Note the license plate. That Break is every bit of that plate.
    The other pics are only an attempt to ruin you.

    Via the aussiefrogs App
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Am I just being daft? Considering the purchase of a DS23-1411955443161.jpg   Am I just being daft? Considering the purchase of a DS23-1411955553752.jpg   Am I just being daft? Considering the purchase of a DS23-1411955610584.jpg   Am I just being daft? Considering the purchase of a DS23-1411955679705.jpg   Am I just being daft? Considering the purchase of a DS23-1411955711080.jpg  

  25. #25
    Member julian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    102

    Default

    Very nice.
    Thanks for the photos.
    I have a long term partner and no need for chick magnets. It is nice when people stop you and tell you a story about how their dad had one when they were new, and how they always wanted to get one.
    As long as the attention is not from the police I am happy.
    1968 Renault 10
    1977 Mercedes Benz 300D

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •