DS19 engine reconditioning
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Thread: DS19 engine reconditioning

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    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default DS19 engine reconditioning

    I'm currently in the middle of the rebuild of an early Citroen DS19 engine. While the interested audience for a blow by blow description of what is involved in this project is limited, I'm happy to document this if there is sufficient interest. Although it is specifically a DS19 engine, most is applicable to all the 3-bearing engines up to 1965.
    Let me know your thoughts.
    roger

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    Fellow Frogger! brycedunn's Avatar
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    I would be interested to see updates!
    --
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    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

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    The three bearing engines have a problem with crankshaft con-rod bearings. It is important to ensure your engine reconditioner grinds the sides of the bearings surfaces with the Citroen recommended radius from the bearing diameter to the crank web.

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    I'm absolutely interested! Motor porn is something right up my street.

    Always good to see objective sets of photos, from bare blocks right through to bolting on the head.

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    mnm
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    Yes please..

    Matthew

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    Quote Originally Posted by mnm View Post
    Yes please..

    Matthew
    Me too.

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    I'm about to tighten the head once more on a '64 ID to fix the problem of radiator coolant in the sump. Either the Head Gasket or the seals at the base of the piston liners. I have a strong feeling that I'm not going to succeed without getting immersed in major work.
    Yes Roger. Any info on doing an engine up, will help me understand these engines more. Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    I'm currently in the middle of the rebuild of an early Citroen DS19 engine. While the interested audience for a blow by blow description of what is involved in this project is limited, I'm happy to document this if there is sufficient interest. Although it is specifically a DS19 engine, most is applicable to all the 3-bearing engines up to 1965.
    Let me know your thoughts.
    roger

    Definitely interested and will watch with great interest, the motor in my 61 ID is a bit tired.
    thanks,
    john

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDear View Post
    I'm about to tighten the head once more on a '64 ID to fix the problem of radiator coolant in the sump. Either the Head Gasket or the seals at the base of the piston liners. I have a strong feeling that I'm not going to succeed without getting immersed in major work.
    Yes Roger. Any info on doing an engine up, will help me understand these engines more. Michael
    Oh yeah we're interested!!!!

    Hey Michael,

    Have you pressure checked the head? I've had one mix oil/coolant behind the rear head plate .... It corrodes a hole between the oil and coolant circuits

    Seeya
    Shane l.


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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
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    Shane. Can you elaborate. What's a rear head plate?
    Michael

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDear View Post
    Shane. Can you elaborate. What's a rear head plate?
    Michael
    A bolt-on steel plate that covers the water jacket cavity at the rear of the head. Maybe to make the head easier to cast?
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    A bolt-on steel plate that covers the water jacket cavity at the rear of the head. Maybe to make the head easier to cast?
    Yeah, at the rear of the head is a plate similar to the side plates (internet inlet manifold versions). They cover the water jacket. This one allowed coolant into the valve rocker area.

    Seeya
    Shane l



    Via the aussiefrogs App
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Yes please Roger.

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    I'm currently in the middle of the rebuild of an early Citroen DS19 engine. While the interested audience for a blow by blow description of what is involved in this project is limited, I'm happy to document this if there is sufficient interest. Although it is specifically a DS19 engine, most is applicable to all the 3-bearing engines up to 1965.
    Let me know your thoughts.
    roger
    Me too Roger. I have two 3 bearing IDs and both motors seem to be high mileage and well worn and hence in need of overhaul before too long, if I want to get reasonable performance, reliability and tune out of them.
    Regards, Leconte
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

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    Interested! But I hope I will never have to do it! But If that happen. I need step by step picture manual so I can do it myself.
    Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Let her rip Roger! Is that my old engine block and stuff?
    Cheers Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    While the interested audience for a blow by blow description of what is involved in this project is limited
    not so limited - A blow by blow account would be excellent if only to increase understanding of these engines in general... a task almost as big as doing the engine itself possibly...
    DS23 Pallas BVM Vert Argente - in ground up restoration, soon to be BVH.
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    Well, here we go.

    This engine build is a replacement for the unit originally fitted to my ’57 DS19. I was very generously given this engine by a fellow Aussiefrogger in a disassembled state. I don’t know it’s history but from the engine number it is a very early example, and doesn’t appear to have had a lot of use. However the plan is a full overhaul.
    As it came in pieces, disassembly was not an issue, but disassembly of these engine doesn’t present any real difficulties, and the procedure is well covered in the workshop manual.
    The centre main journal cap, the big-end caps, and the crankshaft counterweights must be marked to ensure correct re-assembly.
    Examine the block for any obvious problems, like a hole through which a con-rod disappeared.
    These engines are fitted with replaceable “wet” liners and it is essential that the faces where the base of the liners fit into the block are sound with little or no corrosion, otherwise there may be coolant leaks into the sump.
    Don’t send the block off to be chemically cleaned. The block is fitted with camshaft bearings that will be attacked, also the aluminium engine number plate will be eaten. I’ve not found the need to replace the camshaft bearings – they are not listed in the Parts Manual, and as far as I know were never available from Citroen.
    This particular block had considerable corrosion on the top face and needed to be machined to enable the head gasket to reliably seal. It was “decked”, 0.38mm machined from the face. When this is done the same amount must be machined from the top of the liners to maintain the block/liner relationship ( the liners stand slightly proud of the block face).
    Apart from the deck corrosion, this block checked out OK. Main bearing tunnels were OK for diameter and ovality, cam bearings were good, and the liner mounting faces were perfect.
    All the threads in the block were chased out with appropriate taps – luckily none were faulty.
    The outside of the block was attacked with a small wire brush mounted in a air die grinder – very effective. I found these brushes some ago on EBay and they are fantastic for this sort of application. The wires are encapsulated in epoxy resin which prevents them ‘ballooning’ in use which is a problem with conventional brushes of this type, and they can be run up to 15000 rpm.
    The block was masked up for painting and three coats of VHT “racing green” spray can applied. The result is not as dark as I wanted but is darker than the flash shot photos indicate.
    To be continued.
    DS19 engine reconditioning-ds19blockfacecorrosion_1.jpgDS19 engine reconditioning-wirebrush_1.jpgDS19 engine reconditioning-ds19maskedblock_1.jpgDS19 engine reconditioning-ds19paintedblock_1.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DS19 engine reconditioning-ds19bocklinerfaces_1.jpg  
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Nice start on what looks like an interesting series, Roger.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    I'm very interested to follow along...thank you in advance for sharing the experience.
    Pynhead
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    1969 Citroen DS21

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Let her rip Roger! Is that my old engine block and stuff?
    Yes, plus some parts from my stash.
    roger

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    The early DS and ID crankshafts are, in typical Citroen fashion, a little different in design to the usual run of crankshafts. Firstly, they have bolt-on counterweights. Although not unique, these are not all that common in mass produced passenger car engines.
    Secondly, the big-end journals are hollow and are sealed by threaded brass plugs. The hollow recesses in the journals are fed with pressurized oil from the main bearing journals, and drillings in the big-end journals feed oil to the big-end bearings.
    When the crankshaft is rotating, it acts as a centrifuge on the oil in the hollow big-end journal recesses – soot and wear particles are flung out of suspension in the oil and build up in the recess. The dispersant ability of the engine oils of the time ie the ability to hold particles in suspension, was quite poor and it is surprising just how much crap can build up. If the crankshaft is to be reused it is essential that the brass plugs are removed and these deposits cleaned out.
    First task is to remove the counter weights. After knocking back the locking strips a rattle gun and impact socket is the best approach as the heads of the setscrews are quite shallow. Mark the counterweights so that you can put them back in their original positions.
    Next is removal of the threaded brass plugs which, if they are original, will have a 12mm hex recess. However these plugs may have been in place for 50 years and are very reluctant to shift even when given a heat/freeze cycle. The hex recess will deform before they budge.
    My removal method is to drill a central hole through the plug large enough to insert a carbide burr in a die grinder and mill away the brass out to the threads in two spots. Then collapse the remaining plug with a small cold chisel or pin punch. You need to be very careful not to damage the threads in the crank.
    Then clean the crap out of the journal recess, and out of the threads. I then run a bottoming tap (22mm x 1.25 pitch) through each thread to ensure that the replacement plugs will fit without galling.
    Replacement main bearings and big-end bearings are available in standard journal size, 0.5mm undersize, and 1.0mm undersize. This crank was still standard and could probably been re-used after linishing, but it had some corrosion staining so it was ground to suit 0.5mm under bearings. The bearings were sourced from Der Franzose in Germany (www.franzose.de/en/Citroen-DS-11CV-HY/).
    I’m fortunate in that I live in a small Victorian country town which is a hotbed for automotive activity – hot-rods, classic cars and high end vintage machinery. It is amazing what restoration capability is available locally, and all this engine machining was done in the town.
    After the crank has been reground undersize it is essential to completely clean it to remove all grinding residue and deposits. Specialist brushes are available to clean out the oil-ways. Cleanliness is essential!
    The journal brass plugs were replaced using a small amount of Loctite thread sealant, torqueing the plugs to 30 ft-lbs. The counterweights were then replaced, with the locking plates deleted and a medium grade thread-locker used on the setscrews.
    The crank is almost ready to go but is awaiting the flywheel and clutch so that the whole assembly can be dynamically balanced.
    To be continued
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DS19 engine reconditioning-ds19-crankj_1.jpg   DS19 engine reconditioning-ds19fittingcrankpugs_1.jpg   DS19 engine reconditioning-ds19crankplugs_1.jpg   DS19 engine reconditioning-ds19crankplugrthread_1.jpg  

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Roger I had some spares of those oil gallery plugs. I shall look around and see whether I can find them! They are yours if they turn up!
    Cheers Gerry

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    If you have ever had the pleasure of removing a exhaust manifold from an early DS or ID cylinder head it is likely that one or more of the 7mm studs broke leaving you with a problem. Although there are esoteric ways to remove broken studs such as Electric Discharge Machining, the only practical method for the DIY operator to remove broken studs is to very, very carefully drill down through the stud and pick out the remaining bits.
    In the event you may be left with a set of holes in the head with very dodgy M7 threads. If this is the case then the solution is to machine and fit either 7mm or 8mm helicoil inserts.
    Helicoil is the (now) generic name for thread inserts that, when inserted, reproduce the original thread. Fitting the inserts involves drilling out the hole oversize, tapping a new thread and then winding in a threaded insert.
    On the DS/ID head the inserts have be placed with a fair amount of precision to ensure that the exhaust manifold will fit, and it is not something that can be done “by eye”.
    This head had had the exhaust stud threads already tapped out to M8, but they were badly done, the studs wobbled, and the threads would not have been reliable. It was decided to helicoil for M8 studs.
    I appreciate that the following procedures involve equipment that most readers will not have but the information is given in the sense of understanding what has to be done.
    The head was clamped up on the milling machine and the exhaust face checked for truth.
    Then some very careful measurements were taken to establish the correct dimension between the 8 studs. It was determined that the centre distance between the studs of each port is 64.0 mm, and the total distance between the front and rear stud centres is 384.0mm. From this it was possible to carefully position the headstock to drill out the stud holes to accept the helicoil tap.
    In the first image a laser is used to accurately locate a hole centre.
    Once the tapping holes are drilled the helicoil tap is held vertically in the milling machine, and each hole is tapped out to accept the helicoil insert. The insert is then wound in with special tool, and then the inner tang is broken off with a punch.
    As these studs pass into the water jacket, it is necessary to seal the thread inserts (and the subsequent studs) to prevent coolant leakage. As this is the exhaust area and subject to high temperatures J-B epoxy was used as a sealant. This can cope with up to 550F temperature so should be OK.
    If the head is fitted with M7 inserts you can fit original studs. If you have fitted M8 inserts then you have a choice of fitting M8/M8 studs (and drilling the exhaust manifold to suit) or sourcing M8/M7 studs from Der Franzose in Germany at great expense.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Fellow Frogger! deesse's Avatar
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    This is a great thread. Thanks Roger.
    cheers Tony

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