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Thread: DS19 engine reconditioning

  1. #101
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Super engineer precision work! Impressive!

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    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leconte View Post
    Hi Roger,

    This thread is absolutely invaluable, thank you. I will be getting my motor reconditioned "later" (hopefully after an event later this year) and you are pointing out so many important points to be careful of. It is mandatory viewing!

    regards, Leconte
    Could justify becoming a 'sticky' for perpetual reference..

    SF
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  3. #103
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Could justify becoming a 'sticky' for perpetual reference..

    SF
    I Agree!!!
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    Cheers Gerry

  4. #104
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    Once the thrust washers are sorted out attention can be turned to the oil seal arrangement at the front of the crank. Engines of this vintage do not have the benefit of modern elastomeric oil seals, and rely on baffles or scrolls to limit oil escaping. Citroen call the DS arrangement a “oil thrower” and it’s effectiveness relies on the thrower being a very close fit in the surrounding housings. To set this up you need a strip of 0.1mm thick shim steel, 200mm long by 10mm wide. This is wrapped around the thrower and the setscrews of the top and bottom split housings tightened. The bearing cap/housing assembly is then removed and the shim extracted. The clearance around the thrower is thus set. This procedure is well explained in the workshop manual.

    DS19 engine reconditioning-ds19engineoilsealshim_1.jpg

    Before the front and rear main bearing caps can be finally bolted up the sump gaskets need to be fitted into place on the block. The gaskets in the attached image were sourced from Der Franzose and each side has cork sections at the ends which fit under “wings” of the bearing caps. The gaskets are quite floppy and to keep them in place I use Hylomar jointing compound.

    DS19 engine reconditioning-ds19enginesumpgasket_1.jpg

    With the gaskets in place the front and rear main bearing caps can be bolted in place with a tension wrench to the factory torque specs. For the main bearing cap bolts the workshop manual (465) has conflicting recommended torques – 58 and 72 lbs-ft. I use the latter.

    I might digress a little here. With engines of this vintage it is unlikely that you are the first to venture into it’s oily depths. If you are, thank your stars. If not then you might find plenty of evidence that a backyard bodger has beaten you to it. Cold chisels used to undo large nuts are usually the first sign. A favourite bodger trick was to file or machine the main bearing caps to restore bearing clearances ( although this was more common with the older poured white metal bearings). If this has been done then you will have difficulty in getting the clearances right with new bearings. Your engine machinist should check the dimensions of the main bearing tunnels, and if necessary the tunnels can be line-bored to correct the problem. Similarly, the con-rod big ends should be checked for dimensional accuracy, and corrected if necessary.
    To be continued.
    roger

  5. #105
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    The answer may be obvious, but I'm surmising the 'oil thrower' centrifugally throws the oil away meaning oil doesn't get to the seal and then doesn't get out? Or is there a different procedure at work?
    Gillian and Chris

    74 D Special, and now a 74 Pallas 23 5 speed with air(maybe).

    Oh, and a Holden and a Suzuki.

    Lasya, Tibetan goddess of the moon and beauty who carries a mirror.

  6. #106
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Could justify becoming a 'sticky' for perpetual reference..

    SF
    We're getting a lot of stickies at the top of the forum which are painful to scroll past all the time. So I have created a sticky thread with all the really good threads linked in it.

    The Thread of excellent threads!

    I'm quite amazed by this thread, it's a real eye opener. I thought the old long stroke motors were very simple, but there is so much I would have missed checking and fixing completely if I'd tried this task. I'd have thrown new bearings and rings in it and called it done

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasya View Post
    The answer may be obvious, but I'm surmising the 'oil thrower' centrifugally throws the oil away meaning oil doesn't get to the seal and then doesn't get out? Or is there a different procedure at work?
    The oil thrower is the seal. It consists of a set of radial vanes angled to throw the oil back when the crank is turning. You can just see the vanes in the first image of my last post.
    roger
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    The oil thrower is the seal. It consists of a set of radial vanes angled to throw the oil back when the crank is turning. You can just see the vanes in the first image of my last post.
    roger
    And just to add - short stroke engines are the same, no rear main seal. Just the thrower...

    Cheers,

    Mark...

    PS. Roger how do you keep everything so clean... you could eat off those parts....love your work...

  9. #109
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    Similar in concept to a 'scroll' on the end of the crank, directing oil that would otherwise leak out back towards the sump. An asbestos rope seal would be pre-sized with a special tool to give a negligible clearance (hence the shim used here) in conjunction with a scroll. Crankcase ventilation issues and over-pressure, even leaving the car on a very steep hill, can cause leakage at the crankshaft with this arrangement.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    Once the thrust washers are sorted out attention can be turned to the oil seal arrangement at the front of the crank. Engines of this vintage do not have the benefit of modern elastomeric oil seals, and rely on baffles or scrolls to limit oil escaping. Citroen call the DS arrangement a “oil thrower” and it’s effectiveness relies on the thrower being a very close fit in the surrounding housings. To set this up you need a strip of 0.1mm thick shim steel, 200mm long by 10mm wide. This is wrapped around the thrower and the setscrews of the top and bottom split housings tightened. The bearing cap/housing assembly is then removed and the shim extracted. The clearance around the thrower is thus set. This procedure is well explained in the workshop manual.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    roger
    Hi Roger, just so I have got this straight (the bolded bit above): so the set screws are used (from both sides of the housing above and below) to hold the two housing apart by the thickness of the shim, which is then removed without changing the set screw positions, hence they become a way of setting a gap of known width. That is so ingenious! I read it a couple of times before I "got it".

    I gather this only done at the front of the engine block, at the rear the thrust washers front and back of the bearing act as the seal. I'm not clear why they couldn't use the same system on the front as the rear, but there is obviously a good reason...

    thanks Mark (Leconte)
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leconte View Post
    Hi Roger, just so I have got this straight (the bolded bit above): so the set screws are used (from both sides of the housing above and below) to hold the two housing apart by the thickness of the shim, which is then removed without changing the set screw positions, hence they become a way of setting a gap of known width. That is so ingenious! I read it a couple of times before I "got it".

    I gather this only done at the front of the engine block, at the rear the thrust washers front and back of the bearing act as the seal. I'm not clear why they couldn't use the same system on the front as the rear, but there is obviously a good reason...

    thanks Mark (Leconte)
    You got it! Rather than me confusing further I suggest you refer to the parts book and the workshop manual.
    In these early engines without a crank damper at the back, there is no need for a rear seal - the timing chain cover keeps the oil off the floor.
    roger

  12. #112
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    The timing chain and sprockets are next to be fitted. The crankshaft and the camshaft are rotated such that when the sprockets and chain are fitted the identifying marks on the sprockets are in line – follow the workshop manual. The large nuts on the crank and camshaft are the tightened to the specified torque with a medium-strength threadlock compound (eg Loctite 243) on the threads.


    Once the timing chain is in place the oil pump assembly can be fitted. Not much to say about the oil pump. The gears are likely to have a lot of witness marks on the tooth flanks, but as long as the teeth are not broken they should be OK to re-use. A broken relief valve spring will be obvious, and check that the relief valve is free to move. There should be around 0.05 mm clearance between the gear end faces and the body of the pump.
    To fit the pump assembly the crank is rotated to TDC firing on number 1 cylinder. The pump is inserted into the block so that when the gear engages with drive gear on the camshaft the slot that drives the distributor is parallel to the engine and the short side of the dog is on the inside.


    The sump is sealed at the front and rear main bearing caps by rectangular section seals which fit into grooves in the caps. I think that these were originally cork, and the parts book quotes them having a section of 6.5 x 8 mm. I sourced some repro seals from Der Franzose which were a white rubber of some sort, quite stiff.

    DS19 engine reconditioning-ds19enginesumpseals_1.jpg

    These measured just over 8 mm square and when I tried to fit them they were reluctant to fit into the grooves and stood far too proud of the grooves. Another crap repro part.
    I had some rubberised cork sheet 1/8” thick so I cut four strips of the right width and glued two pairs together with contact adhesive. These were then cut to the correct length and fitted to the grooves and the sump bolted into place.
    The timing chain cover is fitted with a suitable gasket and sealing compound. There are three of the bolts which need sealer under the heads.

    DS19 engine reconditioning-ds19enginecasebolts_1.jpg

    Well, that’s about it – ready to rock and roll.

    DS19 engine reconditioning-ds19enginefinal_1.jpgDS19 engine reconditioning-ds19enginefinal_2.jpgDS19 engine reconditioning-ds19enginefinal_3.jpg

    roger

  13. #113
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    The timing chain and sprockets are next to be fitted. The crankshaft and the camshaft are rotated such that when the sprockets and chain are fitted the identifying marks on the sprockets are in line – follow the workshop manual. The large nuts on the crank and camshaft are the tightened to the specified torque with a medium-strength threadlock compound (eg Loctite 243) on the threads.


    Once the timing chain is in place the oil pump assembly can be fitted. Not much to say about the oil pump. The gears are likely to have a lot of witness marks on the tooth flanks, but as long as the teeth are not broken they should be OK to re-use. A broken relief valve spring will be obvious, and check that the relief valve is free to move. There should be around 0.05 mm clearance between the gear end faces and the body of the pump.
    To fit the pump assembly the crank is rotated to TDC firing on number 1 cylinder. The pump is inserted into the block so that when the gear engages with drive gear on the camshaft the slot that drives the distributor is parallel to the engine and the short side of the dog is on the inside.


    [FONT="]The sump is sealed at the front and rear main bearing caps by rectangular section seals which fit into grooves in the caps. I think that these were originally cork, and the parts book quotes them having a section of 6.5 [/FONT][FONT="]x 8 mm. I sourced some repro seals from Der Franzose which were a white rubber of some sort, quite stiff.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ds19enginesumpseals_1.jpg 
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    [/FONT] These measured just over 8 mm square and when I tried to fit them they were reluctant to fit into the grooves and stood far too proud of the grooves. Another crap repro part.
    I had some rubberised cork sheet 1/8” thick so I cut four strips of the right width and glued two pairs together with contact adhesive. These were then cut to the correct length and fitted to the grooves and the sump bolted into place.
    [FONT="]The timing chain cover is fitted with a suitable gasket and sealing compound. There are three of the bolts which need sealer under the heads.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ds19enginecasebolts_1.jpg 
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    [/FONT]
    Well, that’s about it – ready to rock and roll.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    roger
    Well I've just realised where the ID19 here is leaking oil at the back... It *is* actually the bolts. I'll be damned. thanks for posting such an obvious pictures labelling in big letters "SEAL THESE BOLTS"
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  14. #114
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    This might be a good time to suggest a modification. The crankshaft case breather is open to atmosphere ( I know there is a small filter at the base of the breather tube, and of course the biggie atop the tappet cover ) ) . Once in situ access is awkward. I suggest a positive crankcase valve to rebreathe any crank pressure. A small vent via the inlet manifold would do it and guarantee more oil tightness for years to come. These fine mesh breather filters have been known to clog with burnt oil type deposits. Just a suggestion.

  15. #115
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Very Pretty indeed! What car are you going to put it into?
    Cheers Gerry

  16. #116
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    These threads might be a good hint

    DS19 1957 restoration

    DS19 sill cover material

    Early DS hydraulics

    DS19 hydraulic reservoir wording

    why some people shouldn't be allowed near a MIG welder

    DS19 speedo part needed

    DS19 hydraulic reservoir wording

    Are you envious too I can't wait to see this car driving around under it's own power

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  17. #117
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    mine is same! Constant oil drip not enough to worry about but when I finally full out motor, I shall have a look.
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Very Pretty indeed! What car are you going to put it into?
    It's going into my '57 Slough DS19.
    roger

  19. #119
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    Is that because of the earlier block number or is it just convenience to just swap it straight over?
    Cheers Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Is that because of the earlier block number or is it just convenience to just swap it straight over?
    It's convenience really. It means the car is immobile for a shorter time.
    roger

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzelhund View Post
    This might be a good time to suggest a modification. The crankshaft case breather is open to atmosphere ( I know there is a small filter at the base of the breather tube, and of course the biggie atop the tappet cover ) ) . Once in situ access is awkward. I suggest a positive crankcase valve to rebreathe any crank pressure. A small vent via the inlet manifold would do it and guarantee more oil tightness for years to come. These fine mesh breather filters have been known to clog with burnt oil type deposits. Just a suggestion.
    Thanks for the thought.
    roger

  22. #122
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    Roger,
    I cannot find the specification for the con rod and main journal radius anywhere as you mentioned in one of the first posts. Do you know what it is?

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    No, they're probably the UK-made headers that Leno poured shit on in that episode.
    roger
    I am sorry to wake up an old thread like this but I also have a USA spec SM and would very much like to find the European stile manifold and headers.
    Can anyone direct me to where I can find a set?

    Jörgen

  24. #124
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    P.D. Gough/Nouvalari in the UK.

    Nouvalari Engineering Ltd
    Cheers,
    John T.

    61DS19 LHM BVH (son's); 67DS21 BVH; 71DS21 BVH; 73SM 3.0; 73SM EFI (Megasquirt); 73SM 3.0 (other son's)

  25. #125
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    Thank You!
    I have sent a quote request to them.

    Jörgen

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