1976 Cx C-matic pallas
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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Default 1976 Cx C-matic pallas

    Hi Everyone

    I can possibly get my hands on a 1976 CX C-matic pallas, but owner says the gearbox needs some oil, I guess there must be a leak somewhere... I was thinking of driving car home but on second thoughts that could be troublesome, I wanted to ask you guys are there any replacemen oils or at least a temporary oil I could use until oil from overseas can arrive?

    I did a search for alternative oils but I can't find Castrol TQF or Transmax type F only transmax type Z which I doubt are the same. I don't think South Africa has got any Castrol TQF left at all! If I ask for type F or even TQF I get dumbstruck faces so I gave up. Can you guys recommend any temporary oil at least to move car around.

    When I get to see the car I will take more pictures, I received some pictures of the car, it is a left hand drive Pallas with blue seats which still oked rather nice, paint needed some work though, car still has papers and was driven until very recently.

    Like I said I will keep you guys posted once I get to see the car.

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    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
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    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Castrol Transmax type F!
    Complete drain and refill.
    Any trans oil that meets Ford spec M2C-33 F/G.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Thanks Gerry

    I am having difficulty sourcing Castrol Transmax type F, I will have a look for an oil which meets the specific specs you stated.

    Being the older 2200 are they any slower than the carburettor auto 2500 units? I was looking for something unique in the Cx range, and I think this 2200 c matic fits the bill, I can't find much info on them either, are they getting rare or were there not many of the built to begin with?

    Thanks
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Mine is a 2400 with carb. I do not think that there would be much difference between it and a 2200. There were also C-matics with fuel injection. They would be a little more potent. But they are also more rare. There are plenty of decrepit C-Matic cars here in Australia , but very few good cars left. Shane has a paddock full of old CXs., both C-Matic and four speed!
    If you get this car once you have fixed the leaks. Check that the solenoid clutch switching valve has not had the plastic cap split and dropped. If I has a strap can be made to go under the cap and fix to the solenoid fixing screws to hold the cap up in its correct position.
    Then go on a fluid cleansing program. Change the transmax F every 50 or so miles until it drains clean and clear red. The torque converter cannot be drained and needs this constant changing program to thoroughly flush the build up of detritus from around the internal clutch. This build up can prevent the clutch operating effectively and leads to slip and inefficient torque transmission under load. The lack of regular fluid changes has killed many a C-Matic torque converter.
    Once the fluid is clean you can then change the fluid every 20,000 miles. Filters are available from CX-Basis.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    I just did a search trying to find a suitable oil

    Apparently ENGEN ATF type 33G http://www.lubricantsonline.co.za/up...0%2022%20D.pdf
    and SASOL ATF 33 F&G http://www.sasol.co.za/products/fuel...ants/atf-33-fg
    all falls under the M2C -33 F/G spec I can't find Castrol Tansmax type F in South Africa, so the other ones will have to do just to get the car mobile until I can find Transmax F or if nessecary get from CX- Basis. Kind of excited to get to see the car, going to see the car Thursday
    Last edited by CorneSoutAfrica; 8th September 2014 at 12:16 AM.
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    What about Penrite ATF -33 TypeF?

    http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...d_products=255
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Hi Gerry

    No penrite in South Africa that I know of but going to make some calls today, there must be some oil somewhere!!

    As soon as suppliers open for business I wi give them a ring

    Keep you posted
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Find out what the Jaguar boys use in their Borg Warner 35s. It used to specify an F rated fluid such as TQF. Rover P5 owners will also have the same grades of fluid!
    Last edited by gerrypro; 10th September 2014 at 11:10 PM.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Hi Gerry

    I called a whole lot of gearbox socalled specialists and they state I can use dexron DII fluid ....... Sigh guess import is my only choice now. The incompetence makes me livid!!
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    Hi Gerry

    I called a whole lot of gearbox socalled specialists and they state I can use dexron DII fluid ....... Sigh guess import is my only choice now. The incompetence makes me livid!!
    I like that bit about so called experts!! Ha ha ha ha ha!
    Bloody Idiots!
    Have a look for it online!
    I buy mine at SuperCheap Auto!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Do Opie Oils ship to ZA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Find out what the Jaguar boys use in their Borg Warner 35s. It used to specify an F rated fluid such as TQF. Rover P5 owners sill also have the same grades of fluid!
    The BW35 isn't necessarily the best one to ask about because Dexron was specified by some manufacturers using it. I'd think the BW35 in Jaguar MkII and old Daimler V8's would have used the Ford type fluid like the DS auto, but Volvo used the BW35 too and specified Dexron as far as I am aware. In Jaguar models, it's better to ask about 420, 420G, early XJ6, carby V12 to 1975 and E-type, which used either the BW Model 8 or Model 12 gearboxes. These do not use Dexron fluid. Later Jaguar models used the BW65 or GM T400, the latter certainly using Dexron. You basically want ATF without any friction modifiers.

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Hi Everyone

    Well finally something worthwhile to report, she is home!! What a battle to get her this far! Here is a few Pictures of the girl She unfortunately got a knock on her bonnet, but that is fine it will be fixed soon, all the important bits are there, right front door won't open although it is unlocked, Any ideas how to get to work there? Left front door electric window works but I think the cable snapped inside, motor is working though, the fuel tank needs to be cleaned and the guage unit in tank is also damaged due to old fuel, going to try and fix the damaged wire between sender unit plug and sender unit itself, the suction pipe was totally blocked!!

    I fitted a temporary tank in the engine bay (5 litre oil can) to move the car around. The poor engine did not get oilchanges often, the sludge buildup is significant! I am waiting for the proper oil to be shipped to me, unfortunately not Castrol transmax F but ENGEN 33 G which falls under the Ford spec M2C-33 F/G so I am hopeful all will be the correct oil. The gearbox is low on oil, could that be why the gearbox don't want to engage gears whan you select gears? If you start her in gear no problem the moves but to select any gear apart from park and neutral ,ofcourse, she grinds gears, or could there be more significant damage?

    I'm cautiously saying everything electronic seems to work in the car, but that could change in an instant, I am very happy with this CX, a respray is inevetable but one step at a time, I will post more photos soon once I can dig deeper in the car

    1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0795.jpg1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0796.jpg1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0797.jpg1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0808.jpg1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0812.jpg1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0816.jpg1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0810.jpg

    Cheers
    Corne
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0774.jpg  
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Sorry for wrong way up picture of the CX on the trailer, but hey it's a citroen everything is possible haha
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    JBN
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    I thought all of the photos were shot from "interesting" angles. I am off to the chiropractor right now to get my head realigned.

    The interior looks in good shape. All the best with your outstanding issues.

    John

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Wow, look at the interior in that thing... You'll never find a CX in Australia like that. They have all been cremated

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    It looks like quite a good basis. I'd guess it's been retrimmed as you'd expect the original seats to be the Chevron patterned material that wears out in a heartbeat. Lovely when new, but awful in old age.

    My late CX (RIP) sometimes jammed the door lock and it was because a sliding plate in the lock assembly was sticking. The left side is a mirror image if you need to see how it works. Try some lubricant and thump the door and it may open. Then fix it. There won't be a cable in the window regulator as it's an older style unit with an arm pre-dating the nasty cable setups.

    Being a c-matic, the most likely reasons for a difficult gear change are bad points in the control box, low voltage at the electrovalve solenoid and/or the end of the solenoid has dropped and it can't push the pin up far enough. Start with the voltage at the solenoid terminals. If you leave it idling for a long time, you may find you can't select gear to move off if the charging system voltage has dropped off. The low oil level will not help, but probably is not the root cause of the problem. It shouldn't be leaking, but there will be an oil cooler, so check the condition of the hoses to it.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Trading Estate's Avatar
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    Nice steering wheel Corne!
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    JBN
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    What happens with the CX electric window winders is that the motor body breaks away (either partial or completely) from the gear wheel. Take off the door card and look/feel at the bottom of the door for the winder body.

    A fix that worked for me was to attach the broken bits together, get an old wire coathanger and cut a suitable straight length of wire. Then, bend the wire over the gear housing and either around the bottom of the motor body or to the mounting screws (I forget which after all these years). Use fiberglass tape and epoxy to bond the wire to both the gear housing and the body. This should work for years, IF you get rid of the original cause. The cause is the metal channels gunking up and forcing the motor to work too hard to lift the glass. Clean and grease and check the rollers spin nicely.

    John

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    1000+ Posts Bruce H's Avatar
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    David, that is the correct seat fabric for a 76 2200 Pallas. The one I had was the same fabric, in much worse condition, and I've seen another import 2200 Pallas wit it as well.


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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Sorry for my "angle" shots, John, in my infinite stupidness I didn't realign the pictures before posting them, send your chiropractor bill Thanks for the explanation on the window winder motor, my knowledge is just about zero with the innards of the doors, the passanger side window really moves up and down at quite a speed compared to a later Presigte which is owned by a friend. This coming weekend I will have a look, but first up is the gearbox...

    The oilcooler pipes was replaced, I did notice drops of oil coming from a unit just behind hydraulic pressure regulator, is that the solenoid? To be honest I have't looked carefully, I just cleaned everything to have a better look later, guess this coming weekend is that "later" The previous owner stated that everything worked when he last switched the car on and drove it two years ago, maby as soon as the gearbox oil is here I should do an oil change (well at least replace the oil that comes out whan draining it) I noticed there is a "sump plate" or something that resembles it, can I remove it to visually inspect for broken pieces? Where is the control box located? What voltage should reach the electrovalves?


    Even the steering wheel ain't half bad, I think it is because the car was parked undercover most of it's life, want to try and keep the interior this good, even here this good interior is rare!!

    Keep you guys posted
    Cheers
    Corne
    Last edited by CorneSoutAfrica; 1st October 2014 at 07:18 PM. Reason: grammar
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H View Post
    David, that is the correct seat fabric for a 76 2200 Pallas. The one I had was the same fabric, in much worse condition, and I've seen another import 2200 Pallas wit it as well.


    Via the aussiefrogs App

    Yes, it looks like the early cars used that plain velour. Check out some early brochures here:
    Start depli CX
    A brilliant website, pointed out by HRE in the last week.
    Last edited by David S; 1st October 2014 at 06:33 PM.

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Hi everyone

    Well I took a few pictures of two units on the gearbox, second and third pictures, is that the electrovalve? I saw a bracket was welded onto the unit so something must have happened before, one of the wire connections seems dodgy asell, will try and fix it this weekend. The gearbox oil is also dripping from this unit...... Souds like there could be more damage, I also don't hear any clicking noise once I try to select a gear, should I hear an audible noise emitting from the electrovalve even?

    The third picture shows another unit on top of the gearbox with "gelbon" written on it, rhght next to it are two wires just hanging there, I can't see any place where they should be plugged into

    1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0831.jpg1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0826.jpg1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0827.jpg1976 Cx C-matic pallas-img_0829.jpg

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    Hi Gerry

    I called a whole lot of gearbox socalled specialists and they state I can use dexron DII fluid ....... Sigh guess import is my only choice now. The incompetence makes me livid!!

    Don't do it, no Dexron II in your BW33 !!!!
    ATF 33 only.

    Dexron II is friction modified and the Borg Warner 35 doesn't agree with that !
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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  25. #25
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    It's common for the bottom of the electrovalve to drop, so you often see a bracket around it to support that. Yours looks to have some extra brackat, so it may have broken away at the base. There is something not right with the green wire there. You want as close to battery voltage there as possible, so measure with a multimeter and eliminate the voltage drop if possible. If the bottom of the electrovalve drops too far, then it can leak internally, because the pin is contained in what looks like an aluminium test tube with a copper winding encased in bakelite. If it has been damaged, it could be leaking through the electrovalve rather than from the o-ring on top that is meant to seal it. It's easy to remove, but mind the spring loaded plunger in the bottom of the housing that is retained by the electrovalve.

    If you remove the cover on that little black Gelbon box, you would see the contacts open and close as your assistant changed gear change gear. Adjustment is covered in Haynes etc.. The idea is that it operates the electrovalve when you move the selectors. You should be able to hear a slight 'plop' sound from the electrovalve when you move the gearstick with ignition on. The loose wire could be for the reverse swutch, which is over in that area, so investigate that.

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