Special DS23 Safari for sale
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Thread: Special DS23 Safari for sale

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Default Special DS23 Safari for sale

    In case it's of interest to anyone in Australia, I've decided to put my D Safari up for sale. Would like it to go to a good home, I've had it a long long time

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    Citroen DS 23 Safari RHD twin carb For Sale (1973) on Car And Classic UK [C534694]

    Cheers

    Marc
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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    This is a good one! Wish it was much easier to bring car from U.K. to Australia.
    And I wish I had spare $$$ and space. That car must drive like racing car...
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    It looks and sounds great. Above my league unfortunately. Out of interest, what are your fuel consumption figures?
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    Quote Originally Posted by caparobertsan View Post
    This is a good one! Wish it was much easier to bring car from U.K. to Australia.
    And I wish I had spare $$$ and space. That car must drive like racing car...
    It is not difficult .Arrange for roll on roll off shipping and pay about $2000 plus another 2000 for the ridiculous port charges at this end ,and the car will be delivered to you .Being a 73 model means no import tax ,only GST, and no real problems with ADR/s and registration
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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Ah- ok. I thought there was some strange rule in UK that I have to own car for 3 years or something....
    In that case If I have fund and space I will consider buying car from UK because they drive same side and make sense.
    Good one though! I bought OZ lotto already.
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincenzo View Post
    It looks and sounds great. Above my league unfortunately. Out of interest, what are your fuel consumption figures?
    It does 23-24mpg on average, imperial gallons. It will do 26mpg on a long run if I keep it down to 75mph, but it and it's driver are happier at 85mph. Once you get it to just over 3000rpm on the motorway it takes some self restraint to not blast by the thing in front, because the response from there to 4000rpm is so crisp and immediate. You can just go for it! Because its got one throttle valve per cylinder and because the inlet port is so open, then provided the carbs are balanced the fuel consumption is actually pretty good. If anyone out there is thinking of fitting a twin carb setup, believe me don't hesitate, it's much better than standard.

    Marc
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    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc61 View Post
    In case it's of interest to anyone in Australia, I've decided to put my D Safari up for sale. Would like it to go to a good home, I've had it a long long time

    Citroen DS 23 Safari RHD twin carb For Sale (1973) on Car And Classic UK [C534694]

    Cheers

    Marc
    Ahhhh. That looks absolutely lovely. A lot of car for only the cost of a new Hyundai....
    JohnW

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  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    Lovely looking motor ! I am loving mine , I thought the way to up the HP on a DS was a supercharger ? The weber Ida's look great though !
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    have you done any head work or cam profile changes

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    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balki View Post
    have you done any head work or cam profile changes
    I measured the clearances between the piston and the valves with plasticine, and skimmed the head to 88.8mm thickness. That gave about 9.6:1 compression ratio by my calculation. I think about another 10 thou could come off (down to around 88.5mm at the very most) but I didn't go there as I wanted a healthy safety margin.

    The mouths of the intake holes in the sandwich plates were filed to widen them where required to match those of the carb. The inlet ports were left untouched as they are wide open anyway, unrestrictive. The exhaust was changed to a single central box and twin 2" diameter exit pipes, which made a big difference to the mid range. The combined change of twin carbs, freer flowing exhaust and an ITG air filter enables the car to pull cleanly and continuously all the way to 5000rpm - I've chosen to never rev it higher than that.

    I didn't change the cam profile, I talked about it a few times back in the mid 90s with Kent cams but hesitated and left it standard. It breathes so well now a cam change is the obvious next step for this car if someone was looking to boost power further. The original EFI engine makes peak power at 5250rpm, so there's plenty of scope for lifting that up to say 6000rpm with a cam change and getting more max power at the top end; the IDFs would love that!

    Cheers

    Marc
    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
    1972 SM 2.7 carb
    1972 DS21 EFI

  11. #11
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    How did you create the intake manifold? Use the injection runners? How did you arrive at that particular carb?
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    How did you create the intake manifold? Use the injection runners? How did you arrive at that particular carb?
    I used the 4 injection runners, shortened them by 40mm and machined the external surface to round so a sandwich plate could be dropped onto each pair. Made 10mm sandwich plates, welded them on and machined it flat and parallel with head. I looked at the centre to centre dimensions of the Weber IDA and IDF and found that the IDF carb is within 2-3mm of the centre to centre measurement of the adjacent injection runners. So that made it feasible to fit twin IDFs. And IDFs are reasonably common so spares are readily available. Opted for 44s in case I did cam change one day, although 40s would be ok too.

    I had to shorten and reverse the throttle rod action and make an air box to sit on top to prevent icing. Air box was a bit difficult to design to make sure there was clearance with bulkhead. Drove around without it for a while but intake roar was too much to tolerate!

    Cheers

    Marc
    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
    1972 SM 2.7 carb
    1972 DS21 EFI

  13. #13
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc61 View Post
    I used the 4 injection runners, shortened them by 40mm and machined the external surface to round so a sandwich plate could be dropped onto each pair. Made 10mm sandwich plates, welded them on and machined it flat and parallel with head. I looked at the centre to centre dimensions of the Weber IDA and IDF and found that the IDF carb is within 2-3mm of the centre to centre measurement of the adjacent injection runners. So that made it feasible to fit twin IDFs. And IDFs are reasonably common so spares are readily available. Opted for 44s in case I did cam change one day, although 40s would be ok too.

    I had to shorten and reverse the throttle rod action and make an air box to sit on top to prevent icing. Air box was a bit difficult to design to make sure there was clearance with bulkhead. Drove around without it for a while but intake roar was too much to tolerate!

    Cheers

    Marc
    Very cool. I was wondering if you were able to get the carbs on center, it sounds like you did. 2-3 mm isn't much- a little porting of your new bases would clear that up. Considering how tall the intake manifold is on a D Injection, you probably gained room dropping the Webers on. I can see where the reversed throttle linkage would be a challenge. Up to that firewall bracket, you're pretty much stuck with what's there.

    Big ol' thumbs up on your Wagon. Had it on a dyno yet? I'm sure low end grunt has improved substantially.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    You fitted an XM hydractive valve to the front suspension. This is intriguing. Can you post details on what's involved?

    SF

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    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    You fitted an XM hydractive valve to the front suspension. This is intriguing. Can you post details on what's involved?

    SF
    In the XM hydractive valve theres also a little ball valve. When the car starts to roll this blocks off the primary route for LHM to flow from the suspension cylinder on one side to the other. This cuts the roll angle and makes the car feel tauter, but in a straight line it has no bearing on the suspension. Basically you can travel round bends faster with less roll.

    So in the conventional hydropneumatic layout both front spheres are supplied in parallel from the HC, so fluid can transfer freely from left to right sphere or vice versa if theres something encouraging it to do so. When the car enters a corner the suspension cylinder on one side compresses as that side goes down, whilst the other side goes up. The side going up can readily admit more fluid into its cylinder, so at that instant fluid tends to transfer across. This acts to exacerbate the roll angle, so by blocking the crossflow it can be restricted.

    The XM hydractive valve has one feed pipe going to each sphere and needs a 3.5mm pipe feed taken from the front HC. The XM uses 10mm pipe but the DS 4.5mm, so what I did was make some 4.5mm adaptors for each side of the hydractive valve and run 4.5mm pipe to each sphere. There's another 3.5mm hole in the HA valve which needs to be blocked and you either need to fit a "centre" sphere or make an end cap and fit it where the centre sphere fits. I just fitted an accumulator sphere and bolted the valve to the RH front chassis member - the sphere is not in the hydraulic circuit because the electrolvalve in the hydractive valve defaults to blocking flow to it (XM hard mode) unless an electrical supply is applied.

    When I drove the car down the road at the first corner it was amazing how it didn't roll like it used to! Quite astounding. Basically without banging on too much about it, you can corner 5-10mph faster, the roll angle is much less, confidence on a windy road goes up, the tyres take the pain and can squeal if you're too keen and you can't overcome the laws of physics else you end up in the ditch!

    It's an easy mod. I also fitted one to my SM a few years ago, but the effect is less pronounced than on the D - the front suspension layout is less rolly poly. It's an improvement but not as much as on the DS. I made one for my CX a few weeks ago with 3.5mm adaptors but haven't fitted it yet. If I end up keeping the DS think I might fit one to the rear suspension too!

    If you want to have a go get a front or rear hydractive valve off a series two XM. I've got some photos somewhere, will post later.

    Marc
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    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
    1972 SM 2.7 carb
    1972 DS21 EFI

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    Marc, you could take orders for kits I reckon! Interesting mod. I'd love to see a hydraulic circuit diagram to be sure I understand. I take it you don't supply power to the hydractive valve?
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    JohnW

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    Thanks Marc.
    I'm now in the market for a second hand XM valve or for your after market kit! Why do I suspect they have just rocketed in value?
    Seriously I wonder why this wasn't done from original, so logical. I'd love to see the piccies by the way.

    SF

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Thanks Marc.
    I'm now in the market for a second hand XM valve or for your after market kit! Why do I suspect they have just rocketed in value?
    Seriously I wonder why this wasn't done from original, so logical. I'd love to see the piccies by the way.

    SF
    CitroŽn hydraulics anti-roll suspension and other developments

    Cheers
    Chris
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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I thought the D already had a restriction between the suspension cylinders to limit roll. Obviously the factories idea of roll limiting is somewhat less than what we want now
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    1000+ Posts Andrew Ch's Avatar
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    Thanks for the above link it's a fantastic read and highly informative in simple terms anyone to understand....

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Thanks Chris.
    Fascinating reading and a glimpse into the kind of fertile minds which created these cars.

    SF

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Some photos below of the HA valve mounted on front right chassis arm of DS
    Special DS23 Safari for sale-img_0637.jpg

    This one shows the 4.5mm pipe leaving heading off to one suspension cylinder, the adaptor, the black 3.5mm supply from the HC and the blocked off 3.5mm.
    Special DS23 Safari for sale-img_0636.jpg

    Here's the one out front on my SM (no air con)
    Special DS23 Safari for sale-img_0639.jpg

    These show the end adaptors needed. Exact copies of existing adaptors except with hole and thread for 4.5mm pipe.
    Special DS23 Safari for sale-img_0146.jpgSpecial DS23 Safari for sale-img_01433.jpg

    In terms of the hydraulic circuit, its just a case of the HA valve living between the HC and if you will playing a sort of balancing role between the front spheres. When travelling straight the front spheres are interconnected hydraulically via the HA valve although it is a bit more restrictive than a 4.5mm pipe. As soon as the car turns and there's a little weight transfer, the ball valve in the HA valve moves and virtually blocks the hydraulic interconnection between the left and right sphere so cutting the roll angle. Of course it still rolls in corners but much less than before. No electrics involved.

    Marc
    Marc

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Well I've sold my Safari, new owner picked it up today. Lucky chap.

    First time I've been without a DS for nearly 26 years. Not sure what symptoms will emerge, will have to wait and see. Wife keeps looking at me in an odd manner asking if I'm alright?!

    Meanwhile the CX will be getting more attention (and use) from now on.

    Cheers

    Marc
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    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
    1972 SM 2.7 carb
    1972 DS21 EFI

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Thanks Chris. Wonderful hydraulic engineering. I just marvel even more at the clever engineering thinking and implementation ability behind even the simplest of the systems they thought up and made working prototypes of, let alone managing to put them into production.
    Last edited by JohnW; 18th October 2014 at 09:11 AM.
    JohnW

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    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
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    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

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