Hints on rust treatment on Ds?
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Thread: Hints on rust treatment on Ds?

  1. #1
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    Default Hints on rust treatment on Ds?

    Any hints and/or tips on what products to use when treating the rust areas in my D would be much appreciated
    I will be stripping everything down for a respray in the warmer months
    TIA
    Col

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  2. #2
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    How long is a piece of string? A full strip with plastic media to expose bare metal, then garnet blast to clean out the rust much as possible, followed by a phosphating etch coat, would be pretty much Rolls-Royce. The phosphating sealer will then stall corrosion for up to six weeks in a normal shed environment - but the whole process will set you back maybe $2K in Sydney prices.

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    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    In the box sections and sills and anywhere hidden, seams Mike Sanders wax is a good idea.
    What are my chances of a discount Mike!?

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    What is "Mike Sanders Wax"?

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    You can buy cavity wax in cans that screw onto a putty gun .You need a long extension designed for the purpose that you push through large holes in the ends of sills etc ,and the wax is sprayed thru 360 degrees inside the panel .You may need to drill these holes and plug them later with rubber plugs ,or they may be already there.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'm assuming you mean the hull I'm thinking you will certainly find yourself cutting out lots of metal and replacing IMO the DS hull is an excellent place to use POR15. It's not a miracle cure, but like any coating, if you keep you eye on it for failure, it'll be fine.

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Cavity wax should be well near the end stages of bodywork. Else it will just "grab" detritus loosened by the repair process.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Cavity wax should be well near the end stages of bodywork. Else it will just "grab" detritus loosened by the repair process.
    I'd be more worried about how well it burns .... .'cos you sure will be welding
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I'd be more worried about how well it burns .... .'cos you sure will be welding
    You would only cavity wax after any welding is finished

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    Thank you fellows

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    I found two coats of Penetrol followed by one cote of Panetrol aluminium easy to apply and working very well

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    In answer to the question about Mike Sanders, it's a German company selling what they essentially describe as a "grease". It's heated to liquefy, then squirted in with a modified cavity wax gun. Seems to fare well in the long term tests of rust progression - which is an interesting and relevant aspect.

    Not cheap, they say it's mineral based, so not lanolin-derived. Detractors say its tendency to run when hot makes it a fire risk for future welding repairs, although inert gas purging might help the problems here.

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    I think you need to think about D model rust prevention in two parts - de-rusting and repairing rusted sections - how to coat the repaired metal, and then subsequently treating the chassis to prevent the return of a rust.

    Once new metal has been welded in I have a preference for zinc rich prime and then good old kill rust. I've tried POR a few times, and it should be really good, but I've had mixed results with it peeling off despite fastidious preparation.

    To be perfectly honest there is no paint system which will protect a D model chassis from rusting. There are too many cavities and crevices which would require paint to make it work and there are spots where paint wont do the job - for example the lengths of u shaped metal that clamp the door rubbers on - crushing them onto the rubber after painting damages the paint...!

    D models are designed to rust - all you can do is slow it down.

    There is really only one way to rustproof them properly and it's clean engine oil. It wicks into all the folded panels and works because it never hardens - it just keeps moving around. Fish oil, tectyl, ensis fluid, etc. etc. are near useless in a D-model because they eventually harden and don't wick as well as good old engine oil. I've done this and then followed it up with cavity wax in all the hidden compartments to seal the areas up once the engine oil is in the creases.

    One of the problems with using a special rust treatments is that the box sections (especially the sills) can be choka block with dust so anything you spray in there will just sit on top of the dust. Best if you can clean them out first which is the best option, but hard in a car which is not a rolling chassis. If you can't using engine oil will saturate and penetrate the dust and get to where it's needed.

    Here is the definitive article on the subject : http://www.mycitroen.dk/library/ds/r...ng%20a%20D.pdf

    Cheers,

    Mark...
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    Best solution is sell the car and have a cup of Broken Orange Pekoe Fannings Tea.
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Any Dee restorer will lose sleep over a tea blend with "broken" in its name. They'll be forever scouring the web for unbroken NOS tea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ds21bvh View Post
    ... I've tried POR a few times, and it should be really good, but I've had mixed results with it peeling off despite fastidious preparation. ...
    Had the same. Maybe, my prep was too good and didn't leave enough rust to bite into? It is a very strong and flexible coating, but easily misused. If you coat one side of a panel, then it can rust through from the back and the coating may not fail, possibly making the advance of rust more rapid from that point on. I've seem a lovely coating of POR over eggshell. It's also easily abused in it's application, so it may prove to be a possible negative when buying a 'restored' car in future. Sometimes, 'rust paint' products are sold on the basis of the convenience of slapping it over rust and giving the user a misplaced faith in a magic ability to fix a rusty lump. Use with care. The condensed version in a tube for filling gaps always seems to bubble and look ugly when I've used it, which is a let down indeed.

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    KBS claim to be UV resistant vs POR , the devil is in the treatment and prep as I am tackling in my restoration (cough!). I'm going to use it on the rear and pillars. The only real way to remove rust is cut it out basically. That brings with it the question have you thewherewithall to do it properly or will a gentle fudge effort do until you are ready to sort properly or as I said go the cuppa option! I had a read of the Jackson oiling PDF Mark and that method has legs, I haven't bought my Sanders kit yet, the Sanders claims to have excellent creeping effect which translates as spreading around, it will permeate crannies, I had a look inside the drivers footwell section in mine in front of the brake pedal box and it looked good, I have a chassis which is actually pretty good overall, I've also started using KBS rust blast which gives a zinc phosphate coating to bare cleaned metal, discussing the oil option awhile ago with someone here brought out the comment it' would have odour issues, is that something you noticed?
    Steven

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Any Dee restorer will lose sleep over a tea blend with "broken" in its name. They'll be forever scouring the web for unbroken NOS tea.
    Do you like seeing "your name in print"?
    Please don't waste my time and others with mindless follow up posts on others one off humour
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    KBS claim to be UV resistant vs POR , the devil is in the treatment and prep as I am tackling in my restoration (cough!). I'm going to use it on the rear and pillars. The only real way to remove rust is cut it out basically. That brings with it the question have you thewherewithall to do it properly or will a gentle fudge effort do until you are ready to sort properly or as I said go the cuppa option! I had a read of the Jackson oiling PDF Mark and that method has legs, I haven't bought my Sanders kit yet, the Sanders claims to have excellent creeping effect which translates as spreading around, it will permeate crannies, I had a look inside the drivers footwell section in mine in front of the brake pedal box and it looked good, I have a chassis which is actually pretty good overall, I've also started using KBS rust blast which gives a zinc phosphate coating to bare cleaned metal, discussing the oil option awhile ago with someone here brought out the comment it' would have odour issues, is that something you noticed?
    Steven
    KBS is POR .... read the spec sheets, you probably have the chassis coat, not the moisture cured POR/KBS. The biggest selling point of POR to me is it really does stick like shit to a shovel, particually to areas with surface rust. Given how difficult some areas of a DS hull are to access and prep, this kind of coating is best IMO. If it fails, paint would have failed too.... only way faster. It's simply not a magic bullet like people seem to think. If a panel if rotten fromt he back forward ... It sure still will be regardless of the coating applied to it.

    As suggested above you really still do need to oil all the cavities. I think if I for example painted a DS front floor/sills/firewall with POR (that was lightly surface rusted)..... I could leave it in the weather with the roof off for years and it wouldn't degrade, it would just act like a swimming pool in winter and be an ugly white in summer. POR really does seem to work as advertised. it will NOT stop something rusting the already rusted, and is rusting from both sides of the metal though.

    I painted my DS21 ie pallas's boot with POR15 probably a decade ago, it sat in the weather for several years with no boot lid or rear panels on ... the POR sure is an ugly white colour .... the rust hasn't progressed on iota though ... it's still as rusty as the day I applied the coating, no more no less. The stuff really does work as advertised.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    What about Lanolin. It is oil that does not harden up in my experience. The thing with oils though is you need to redo it on a regular basis. Maintenance gentlemen, maintenance.
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    Thanks again
    I appreciate the information

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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    I have a chassis which is actually pretty good overall, I've also started using KBS rust blast which gives a zinc phosphate coating to bare cleaned metal, discussing the oil option awhile ago with someone here brought out the comment it' would have odour issues, is that something you noticed?
    Steven
    Hi Steven,

    This is the approach I have used with all my cars.

    1. Where the paint needs replacement or for rust repairs I scuff back to bare metal, use rust converter, galvanising primer, paint primer then topcoat. I use killrust as I've looked back at stuff I did 10+ years ago and it's still good.

    2. Under the brightwork on the roof rail, and *anything* where there is a mating surface, or trim covering underlying chassis steelwork or a bolt through a metal section (after painting the hole) I use tectyl in between and simply paint it over the painted surface.

    Edit : I should have said I use a long fine hose to access difficult to access sections not part of the floor structure where gravity is your friend, such as the small cavity at the bottom of the A-pillars, the cavity over the top of the rear window, the bottoms of the C-pillars, inside the door pillars and the void above the windscreen, in the windscreen cantrail. (Accessible by removing the sunvisors). I just spray engine oil directly first and follow up with cavity wax or lanolin.

    3. I use clean engine oil in all the lower box sections and door bottoms and sides first and spray or pour it into the box sections. Let that settle and run out for a week or so, then fill the seams with Wurth cavity wax or Lanolin. I also spray all the sides and tops of the cavities using a flexible hose fitting with Wurth cavity wax or Lanolin.

    4. I use a paint brush with Lanolin everywhere else which is vulnerable - this is especially good on the metal strips that clamp the door rubbers in place - impossible to get a paint seal here.

    On the smell I've never really noticed it but by using clean engine oil you avoid the stink other oils have such as gearbox oil. No matter what you use it will have an odour...

    The other advantage of oiling is the cost...!

    Cheers,

    Mark...
    Last edited by ds21bvh; 29th July 2014 at 10:24 PM.

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    Shane, David,

    Just a few comments on POR. I think it's a good product for what it is, however like anything it's not perfect.

    1. The wrong colour for the chassis, and it's relatively hard to topcoat once cured.
    2. Won't stick well to new metal.
    3. If rust gets underneath it then the topcoat wont show any signs until the underlying metal is buggered.
    4. If the environmental conditions are not quite right then you can see every brush stroke in it.

    Having spent hours cleaning something up (as per the instructions), painting it with POR, then seeing it peel off 6 months later - THEN having to try and clean it up (it's very hard) was enough for me. At least with Killrust or similar it's an easy fix.

    I think the only thing we can do to prevent rust is as as Greg says earlier - maintenance. If you spend the time identifying spots where rust can form, and then cover the imperfect paint coatings regularly with oily products that stay wet and wick, then the risk if them rusting is reduced massively.

    Just look at the areas of a D where LHM is likely to leak - how many rust spots do you see around there...

    Cheers,

    Mark...

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    Damn it I'm sold, adios Sander order!

    There you have it Sherman that should give you some angles to work with.
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 29th July 2014 at 08:51 PM.

  25. #25
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    There was a not a real mention of scope from the OP; I don't just mean budget but physical state of dissembly and outsourcing vs DIY.

    I wrote quite a bit about my POR experiences, which probably got "go-Daddied". Looking at things treated ten years ago, the paint coating has held best on non-sheetmetal, and slightly aged surfaces. For example, a swing arm or stub axle or forged clutch pedal. That's starting from the same baseline of garnet blast and Kephos (now PaintGrip) 253. Frankly I now believe (having learned to some extent the hard way) that on sheetmetal the traditional rťgimes of post-Kephos epoxy primer and 2K primer are pretty hard to beat - with the caveat of correct application conditions including surgically dry spray air. If POR were so awesome then panel shops would be using a quick-cure version of it - and they aren't.

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