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    Member GretaDeesse's Avatar
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    Default Help Please DS23 Haemorrhage

    Hello, I recently purchased a 1974 DS23 5-speed ie and after completing 2,000 km to Cit-In and back without incident, yesterday the car developed an intermittent knocking sound (not dissimilar to a big end knock) but seemed to only last as long as the pump was kicking in, say 3-4 seconds. Carefully drove 1 km home and switched off. Noticed hydraulic oil leaking from around the main accumulator area (lower left side of engine). Hydraulic oil had a smokiness to it and the reservoir has some smoke and fumes. Fluid still leaking out slowly overnight. I checked the bleed screw and it is not leaking. The car seemed to function normally otherwise except for the intermittent knocking noise and the leak. Wondering what steps I should take to troubleshoot and rectify. Appreciate any advice. TIA Greta

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    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Hi Greta,

    Did you check your engine oil level is OK...?

    Also have you checked the level of LHM - the pump can make a loud knocking noise if your low on fluid....

    Cheers,

    Mark...
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    Fellow Frogger
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    The most likely reason for a leak at the regulator is the low pressure return hose having split. The pump will knock if it is sucking air from the reservoir. Start there as ds21bvh suggested.

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    Member GretaDeesse's Avatar
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    Hi Mark
    Thanks for coming back. Yes, engine oil levels OK. Washed the accumulator with petrol and does seem to be a leak in the vicinity of the low pressure return hose as ds21bvh suggests although difficult to see any split (poor light and access). If it turns out to be a split hose, are these readily available or do they need to be ordered in? Do you think it will be "safe" i.e. not make things worse, if I was to start the engine to check for location of leak? PS: Any tips on access to this area.
    Thanks, Greta

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    Member GretaDeesse's Avatar
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    Thanks David S (Fellow Frogger). Sounds like you've nailed it and the pump is knocking as it's sucking air from the reservoir. I will work on confirming diagnosis and work towards a cure. Cheers
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    Member GretaDeesse's Avatar
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    Just checking - If it turns out to be a split hose, are these readily available or do they need to be ordered in? Do you think it will be "safe" i.e. not make things worse, if I was to start the engine to check for location of leak? Any tips on access to this area

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    Fellow Frogger
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    The pump is always pumping fluid around when the engine runs, so a leak in the return hose from the regulator means there is always a good supply of LHM to leak out under the car. The regulator cuts in and out as needed and takes some of the LHM being pumped to supply the suspension, steering and brakes as needed. If enough LHM has leaked out so the pump is sucking air, you will do damage some to it eventually. If you started it as is, it will probably just keep sucking air and possibly not pressurise the system. Top up the reservoir with some LHM before you start it, but expect it to leak out again until you locate and repair the point of leakage. If it is the regulator return hose, yes they are available as a new reproduction part from the usual vendors. However, an alternative would be some hose from Pirtek or similar, bearing in mind the diameter of the fitting at the regulator is likely to be larger than the one the other end of the hose fits on. It might be a fiddle to do that.

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    Fellow Frogger! badabec's Avatar
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    Hello, when my DSuper5 return hose split it dumped all the LHM in about 5 minutes, apart from the litre it dropped on the flatbed truck.
    I fitted the new one completely by feel. The old pipe was identified as a cut down BX pipe. It had hardened and had a split about half an inch long.
    Once on, LHM refilled and the engine started, the suspension was up and down like a yoyo until I assume, the air cleared.
    I keep a spare pipe in the boot now...

  9. #9
    Member GretaDeesse's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice; appreciated.
    Will try to identify the leak today. If it is the return pipe, is it necessary to depressurise the system before removal?

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Always depressurise before working on any part of the hydraulic piping or components!
    Return pipes will not squirt everywhere but a flow of fluid back to the reservoir is going to occur if there is any pressure. Pistons slide valves etc. all leak to some extent. It will become more marked if the system is worn.
    Cheers Gerry

  11. #11
    Member GretaDeesse's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the feedback. Offending hose removed today and split identified. Not an easy job (understatement). Also rubber rock hard. Will contact Denton see if he had replacement part. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't check all the return hoses in future. Help Please DS23 Haemorrhage-imageuploadedbyaussiefrogs1404194107.987043.jpgHelp Please DS23 Haemorrhage-imageuploadedbyaussiefrogs1404194126.491838.jpg

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    I see you are South Coast region, if anywhere near Nowra try South Coast Track Repairs at 8 Concorde Way, Bomaderry NSW 2541 Phone:(02) 4421 3771 . They keep a heap of fittings and generally do things on the spot, great people to deal with.
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Greta- well done, and yah, I would make the recommendation to check all of the hoses. With the car on jackstands (PLEASE!), taking your time you have a couple days worth of work. Like most anything else on a D, not difficult, just really fiddly.

    AusGrenouille- Thanks for that bit of info. I can't use it (I'm a wee bit east of you), but thank you anyway.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    AusGrenouille- Thanks for that bit of info. I can't use it (I'm a wee bit east of you), but thank you anyway.
    Ummmmmm errrr .... yeah San Diego is a wee bit to the east of me, 1968 was the last time I was there.

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    Good find. The rubber tube is not reinforced. You can improve on that for sure.

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AusGrenouille View Post
    Ummmmmm errrr .... yeah San Diego is a wee bit to the east of me, 1968 was the last time I was there.
    Vacation? Naval duty? Huge amount of US military here.

    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Good find. The rubber tube is not reinforced. You can improve on that for sure.
    I seem to remember that fuel hose can be used for the low-pressure lines? Maybe reinforced injection hose...
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    Fuel line is good solution, cheap and cheerful save hassle of waiting transport needless requests : )
    a very clued in mechanic named John recommended this to me recently. It's the main return hose that s's commonly as all D owners should be/are aware!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Vacation? Naval duty? Huge amount of US military here.
    Yup, Navy, grey funnel line cruise ships.

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    Member GretaDeesse's Avatar
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    Urgent Help Please
    Things were going so well and DS23 drove without issue for around 20km. Now on the side of road with front suspension not working, rear working but low, underbody scraping but mo leaks. Height adjuster unresponsive. Hydraulic fluid now half way up reservoir. Too high. Would the level being too high be part of the problem? Any other thoughts before calling the NRMA. Thanks, Greta

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! Boyracer's Avatar
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    Hi Greta,
    Move the height selector to the highest setting and check your LHM level. I suspect you're low on LHM.

    Via the aussiefrogs App
    Cheers,
    Michael

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  21. #21
    Member GretaDeesse's Avatar
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    Thanks. Selected highest setting on height adjuster but no response. Reservoir level same at not quite half.

  22. #22
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GretaDeesse View Post
    Thanks. Selected highest setting on height adjuster but no response. Reservoir level same at not quite half.
    The pump has lost prime, open the regulator bleed screw for a short time. You may find the pump is rattling in an abnormal way too. When you close the bleed screw and it starts too lift, you may find it's too low on fluid and the pump will again loose prime.

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    Member GretaDeesse's Avatar
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    Just bled system and retightened bleed screw. Tried adjuster at all heights. No movement. What fluid level is expected when the car is low i.e. can't be pumped up.

  24. #24
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    If the fluid is above the minimum mark at rest, then the pump should be able to draw the fluid up and not lose prime. The max/min marks are for maximum suspension height At the minimum suspension height, the fluid should be well over 1/2 full, probably 3/4, but I can't recall exactly. Someone near a car could check this. If it has lost its prime and the fluid was not low, then the suction pipe may be split and allowing air in. If that's not the case, the bleed screw is done up and you had been driving it, then you may find the pump has developed an internal leak and cannot produce enough pressure to make it rise. It may or may not leak externally, depending on what has happened. Provided the pump is not running dry, you could try to rev the engine to , say 2,500-3,000 rpm, and see if it will rise. I've seen that happen on a D Special** and the explanation was a crack in the body of the pump. You could also have an internal leak in the steering rack if the front will not rise, but the rear will.

    ** Edit: I know it's merely a renamed ID19B and not a DS, but the pump should be common.
    Last edited by David S; 4th July 2014 at 06:19 PM.
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  25. #25
    Member GretaDeesse's Avatar
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    Thanks all. Bottom line is we left the car as didn't think it wise to drive as was bottoming out on the road. Steering strange as well. Tomorrow will attempt adding more fluid and bleed again then rev harder to see if it pumps up.

    Would initial problem with the return hose (crack) and loss of fluid have damaged the pump? Even only after 3km drive with pump knock?

    Also the replacement LMH fluid added was 15 years old (original sealed Penrite). Does it deteriorate with age?

    PS: Love youz all

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