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Thread: Engine out

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! IE23's Avatar
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    Default Engine out

    Heidi my DS is looking rather strange and heartless.

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    The reason for removing the engine was cross contamination of oil and water, caused by a fault in a bottom cylinder seal. The head gasket was in perfect condition.
    So a full recondition is underway. All parts will be reconditioned whilst out of the car and the usual replacement parts replaced with new.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Engine out-image.jpg  


    Adrian

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    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    Are you doing this job Adrian? Curious to know if done by pros as what cost might be if that is the case.
    Steven

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    Fellow Frogger! IE23's Avatar
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    Being done by a Citroen mechanic. I'll update more here as things progress.


    Adrian

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    I understand that you want to recondition the engine, so its out, but to replace the seals at the bottom of the barrels; does the engine need to come out to do this job. I have a '64 ID that has the same problem.
    I can manage doing a Head Gasket but the job of removing the barrels and replacing the seals is a daunting prospect. Taking the engine out, is another thing again.
    Michael

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    The clutch and timing chain will be replaced, starter motor reconditioned, radiator pressure tested and checked, cleaned and restored if required. Clutch plate and brakes look ok. Steering rack reconditioned, engine bearings replaced, cylinders checked and new cylinder kit and more. Various new seals and belts... there maybe more items I can't recall right now. Everything will be cleaned up; acid wash the plenum & injector housing, repaint the refill header tank and the engine block will be repainted.


    Adrian

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    Don't forget to replace the big end screws! I just copped this with mine. Must be replaced on overhaul. Factory manual recommendation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IDear View Post
    I understand that you want to recondition the engine, so its out, but to replace the seals at the bottom of the barrels; does the engine need to come out to do this job. I have a '64 ID that has the same problem.
    I can manage doing a Head Gasket but the job of removing the barrels and replacing the seals is a daunting prospect. Taking the engine out, is another thing again.
    Michael
    The replacement of seals can be done after head off with the motor in place;no need to remove engine unless other work needs to be done,bit fiddly but ok. You will need large washers and bolts to hold sleeves in place so engine can be turned over as you replace seals,Andy

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    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Pistons and barrels can be exchanged with the motor in the car. I have probably done it 20 or 30 times. Extract the barrels. Upsy downsy with the crank shaft to elevate the pistons. Remove wrist pins and pistons. Chamfer bottoms of barrels heavily in a BFL. Big fokking lathe. Clean barrel seats very carefully. New paper gaskets smeared with grease. Offer up/down barrels over clean pistons with new rings. Seat barrels. Install head. Change oil. If you get cross contamination use bars leak. Often times they work a treat first try. Sometimes you wind up changing oil more than once. Oil is cheap under these conditions.
    there it is in a nutshell describing a fiddly job that is a lot like a Chinese jig saw puzzle.
    Doing the Daffyduck dance via the AussieFrogs app. With a cane! gimp quack quack ow ow ow.

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    So, you are leaving the rod/piston in place and then using the now internally chamfered liner as the piston cuff? That would avoid having to remove the engine, sump or replace any rob bolts/nuts.
    I assume you;d mark the liner so it goes back in the same way and isn't turned.
    How would you be checking the liner protrusion? There are different shim spacers for this on an ID engine.
    If you change the rings and gap them with the liner out, are you reaming any ridge on the bore to ensure the new top ring can't hit it and possibly break?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    Pistons and barrels can be exchanged with the motor in the car. I have probably done it 20 or 30 times. Extract the barrels. Upsy downsy with the crank shaft to elevate the pistons. Remove wrist pins and pistons. Chamfer bottoms of barrels heavily in a BFL. Big fokking lathe. Clean barrel seats very carefully. New paper gaskets smeared with grease. Offer up/down barrels over clean pistons with new rings. Seat barrels. Install head. Change oil. If you get cross contamination use bars leak. Often times they work a treat first try. Sometimes you wind up changing oil more than once. Oil is cheap under these conditions.
    there it is in a nutshell describing a fiddly job that is a lot like a Chinese jig saw puzzle.
    Doing the Daffyduck dance via the AussieFrogs app. With a cane! gimp quack quack ow ow ow.
    That's neat - never thought of doing that with a wet sleeve engine. Thanks for the idea.
    JohnW

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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    So, you are leaving the rod/piston in place and then using the now internally chamfered liner as the piston cuff? That would avoid having to remove the engine, sump or replace any rob bolts/nuts.
    I assume you;d mark the liner so it goes back in the same way and isn't turned.
    How would you be checking the liner protrusion? There are different shim spacers for this on an ID engine.
    If you change the rings and gap them with the liner out, are you reaming any ridge on the bore to ensure the new top ring can't hit it and possibly break?
    Rotation of the liner does not matter. Checking and setting proud of block is a chore but that height honestly gets taken up by the crushable ring in the head gasket. Barrel prep involves a complete clean up of course. And sometimes you will break a ring when you first offer the barrel to the piston. Having spare rings handy is a plus. Having an extra set of hands attached to a smart helper is also a plus. This type of repair is not for a rookie but a seasoned mechanic. I have done plenty of top ends this way on DS and I have seen it done many more times. Not every engine is a good candidate for this. A comprehensive understanding of each car is required. If in doubt, engine out.

    Doing the Daffy Duck dance with the AussieFrogs app and a cane.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Rings get set up while the pistons are in your hands. Then you set them on the rods and shove the barrels over them.

    Doing the Daffy Duck dance with the AussieFrogs app and a cane.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    This is all of course if the barrels/liners/sleeves want to come out in the first place : )

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Haven't met one yet that would not come apart but there were times when I thought the gudgeon pins were going to win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    Rings get set up while the pistons are in your hands. Then you set them on the rods and shove the barrels over them.

    Doing the Daffy Duck dance with the AussieFrogs app and a cane.
    Daffy, did you fall over doing the Daffy Duck Dance? Or are you just putting on your top hat?

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    I was unfortunately struck down by the hand of God himself (twice) and my life will never be the same.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDear View Post
    I understand that you want to recondition the engine, so its out, but to replace the seals at the bottom of the barrels; does the engine need to come out to do this job. I have a '64 ID that has the same problem.
    I can manage doing a Head Gasket but the job of removing the barrels and replacing the seals is a daunting prospect. Taking the engine out, is another thing again.
    Michael
    She'll be right mate .... there's only one way to learn ....... Go, give it a bash.

    We've only ever pulled the liners out of one CX engine.... These days I always have a little smirk to myself when people say "careful to lock the barrels down with bolts and washers ...!!!). Imagine an engine block supported upside down on blocks of redgum, a redgum block onto the barrel from below and someone beating the living shit out of the redgum block/sleave with a sledge hammer trying to move the liners

    seeya,
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    The suggestion about locking down the barrels is when you are replacing them not when you are hammering the shit out of them on removal,Andy.Addit. have never had to remove sump to remove liners.

  19. #19
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alhantos View Post
    The suggestion about locking down the barrels is when you are replacing them not when you are hammering the shit out of them on removal,Andy.Addit. have never had to remove sump to remove liners.
    I still always lock the barrels down myself when I have a head off ...... Even though I've known the struggle to remove them when wanted in the past ..... After all if one moves, your suddenly up for a big job

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    It took the engine rebuild dudes here their 'special instruments'to free the sleeves in my D, I gave up after watching/ making the plate bend I was using in a home made extractor on them. They needed serious pressure to free out. I'd like to see someone take sleeves out with the engine still in!

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