ID19 (1962) Generator no output
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default ID19 (1962) Generator no output

    Hi again all,

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    So the battery on my newly acquired 1962 ID is not holding up. Had to crank start it last night after moving it a few hundred metres and leaving for a while (and it "only just" started the first time). On the positive side, no drama cranking it although it had been running about an hour before.

    So charged the battery overnight and got it running no problems today. However the volts at the battery while revving the motor under the bonnet read 12.54 to 12.57, running up the revs makes no difference. This is after running for a few minutes.

    So to me this says no useful output from the (Ducellier) generator, that would just be the charged up battery voltage (true?). Would that be right or is the regulator (biggish box on the side of the battery holder) also a suspect?

    Did not get get time to take the generator off today and anyway I need the car mobile at present as it is housed in a rustic (no power) shed some 750m from home and I have to drive it there. Wasn't sure I could start and run it with the generator missing, thought some part of the running circuit would be out of action(?).

    There is no bearing noise from the generator, it is spinning freely. I can sort-of see the brushes from the rear (one more than the other) but don't know what good or bad looks like. Would brushes be the most likely culprit and can I get a set from somewhere? I recently replaced brushes in our ducted vacuum motor but in that case the motor simply ceased to run as one brush was completely worn down.

    Thanks for any guidance, leconte
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Sounds like the reg may be your culprit. There's not much inside a generator to go wrong!

    A general run-down on regulator settings may be found across the 'net or (from my observations) in the XK-XP Falcon how-to's put out by Gregory's. These books are worth 4/5 of nothing so may be a more convenient source than a screen when you're all grimy and peering across the engine bay.

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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    There is enough to go wrong in a generator that it can go wrong. I had to have the generator on my 1959 Slough DS19 rebuilt. You might have to too.

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson View Post
    There is enough to go wrong in a generator that it can go wrong. I had to have the generator on my 1959 Slough DS19 rebuilt. You might have to too.

    Roger
    hi Roger, is this something any auto electrician can do/organise? I have used a local bloke for things like 4wd second battery systems, I would go to him if there is no need to find a specialist.

    Regards,
    Mark
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Hello Mark. Any good auto electrician can handle it. I suggest an "old school" one, someone who remembers when generators were fitted to new cars.

    Roger

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leconte View Post
    hi Roger, is this something any auto electrician can do/organise? I have used a local bloke for things like 4wd second battery systems, I would go to him if there is no need to find a specialist.

    Regards,
    Mark
    If an auto-electrician can't overhaul a generator, I'm not sure where you would go for more special skills....

    I'd be inclined to get both regulator and generator checked out and fixed together, personally. My Renault 4CV had this treatment in 1970 and is still fine. My Ducellier generator has a ball bearing at one end (the belt pulley end) and an oilable bronze bush at the other, and I oil it carefully, annually.
    JohnW

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Annularly?

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    Thanks Addo, Roger and John.

    Can I start and run the car without the generator - and hence the regulator would be disconnected (no input from the generator)?

    I can go around and get it off the car during the week but I don't want to disable the car as I am getting it ready for a club permit roadworthy check. I don't actually need the generator working for the roadworthy prep and roadworthy itself but I do need the car running.

    Roger, did you get your regulator serviced/rebuilt as well?

    Thanks leconte
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Yes, you can safely run the car with no charging system. It will stop when the battery is flattened.

  10. #10
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Yes, you can safely run the car with no charging system. It will stop when the battery is flattened.
    10-4 on that. The only concern there would be the water pump drive. Since you're only driving 1/2 mile from your 'rustic' shed to home, that should be no problem.

    Since you'll have the generator out, the fastest check will be the brushes. The quick and nasty rule is if the depression springs are riding on the brush holder, it's time to replace. More normally, the brushes will be worn down to a point just before that where replacement is recommended. Your sparky also needs to check the condition of the commutator segments (the copper bars the brushes ride on), and check to make sure the windings haven't shorted together. In all, shouldn't be any bother for them.

    Once the generator is done, test the generator against the regulator. If the system was working before now, that's what I would do. Conversely, both pieces can be tested separately if your shop has a test bench capable of that.

    Of course, do all the usual checks. Make sure the field and stator wires (from regulator to generator) aren't broken.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  11. #11
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    No, never touched the regulator.

    Roger

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Dynamo Ducellier 7256G 7256 G 12V Citroen ID DS | eBay
    It's sold, but a beaut set of images for reference, of a 12V Ducellier generator in NOS condition.

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Is the regulator earthed ok ?? You may find if the battery housing isn't tied down firmly, it won't be earthed.

    The brushed are enormous and like new in nearly every generator I've seen. I couldn't imagine them ever getting worn out

    seeya,
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    As ebay pic, you can see the carbon brush from behind. Measure the voltage and it should read about 13.8V. And Cable(s) might be broken. Mine had all 3 cables corroded so I have replaced them all.

    If generator was faulty,
    Der Franzose sells contact too. None of Auto electricians have original one so similar one need to be modified.
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    I understand that the car has sat for a long while under John G/W 's previous ownership. The brushes in the gen may be gummed and not contacting the commutator and also the points in the reg. may have oxidised.
    Pull it down yourself first to check these points out, clean points and see that the brushes move freely in their slides and seat cleanly on the commie and you may save a few bucks and find a satisfactory fix!
    addo and Hotrodelectric like this.
    Cheers Gerry

  16. #16
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    Hi guys,
    I took the generator and regulator off the car on the weekend and checked it out (visually). The generator (Ducellier 12V 7256G) looks fine, although it has the original bearing (still riveted in place) that while running freely and not rattly in operation is clearly very dry. I will look at sourcing a new bearing and replace it as per the manual in due course (drill out the rivets, replace with screws and nuts). The parts all came off no drama according to the ID19 manual. The oil bush and felt washer at the other end appear in fine condition, I added engine oil as per the manual when reassembling. The brushes are both good sized, about 12 mm on each and the springs also seem fine. I gave the copper core that they run on a good clean with methylated spirits - it also appears in very fine condition being smooth with well defined grooves sbetween the segments. I made sure the brushes were not catching and added a tiny bit of (non-conductive) inox lubricant on the springs just to make sure they had free movement. I did not unscrew the terminal screws nor check the wiring to the regulator, due to advancing darkness on Sunday. So essentially I cleaned everything, added a little lubrication at the brushes end, and reassembled.

    For the regulator, I took the cover off and while the cork gasket around the base of the cover broke in half, the 3 copper coils and points appeared to be in fine condition. No sign of pitting or burn marks. One of the points was open, the other two were closed. I have no idea what is normal inside it, but all this looked very normal. With nothing obvious needing attention, I just put the cover back on and remounted it. I did note the gasket had a tongue of cork running up the side of the cover in the middle of one of the long sides, now I could not be sure I put this back on, on the correct side as I did not take a photo before disassembly so could not be sure I put it back on the original way around.

    After this I remounted the generator (just LOVE the location of the inner bolt and the almost ALMOST impossible method of getting that bolt back in) and regulator, reconnect the wires and gave it a go. It started fine but... The charge light, which used to go from very very bright to dull after running for a bit, now seems stuck on bright all the time. So in spite of my loving care, I Appear to have gone backwards.

    I lost a fair bit time puzzling over the hydraulics light also being stuck on, hence inability to raise the car under its own steam off the axle stands, and with darkness upon me I gave up the battle for the weekend. There is another thread on that point and I got over that in due course (after a much needed stop for dinner and thought).

    I am certain I reconnected the wiring as it came off (I took photos), everything else is back as it was (fan belt fine, no slipping etc). Is this just beginners bad luck or is there something I have likely neglected in this process that sends me backwards? The only thing I could think is that I put the regulator cover back on with the little tongue of cork on the wrong side and maybe that is significant for some reason.

    I have not checked the 3 wire lead coming from the generator to the regulator for connectivity but it does seem sound enough.

    I cannot see why the generator would not be working and the regulator looked sound (almost in as new condition) under its cover.

    I will post what pictures I can from my phone. It is a bit like "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but in this case it wasn't effctively charging the battery so it was broke, but now appears "broker".

    Cheers leconte
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

  17. #17
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    Photos of generator

    ID19 (1962) Generator no output-imageuploadedbytapatalk1402919624.438400.jpg
    ID19 (1962) Generator no output-imageuploadedbytapatalk1402919646.954108.jpg
    ID19 (1962) Generator no output-imageuploadedbytapatalk1402919662.487391.jpg
    ID19 (1962) Generator no output-imageuploadedbytapatalk1402919672.689672.jpg
    ID19 (1962) Generator no output-imageuploadedbytapatalk1402919689.673235.jpg
    ID19 (1962) Generator no output-imageuploadedbytapatalk1402919725.576566.jpg

    Cheers leconte


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    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Generators need polarising if you're starting anew.
    Hotrodelectric likes this.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Generators need polarising if you're starting anew.
    Hi Addo,

    Oh great well I never heard of this, but dr.google confirms I should. Nothing in Kenneth Ball book but perhaps this is the same as the bench test I did not do in the ID19 repair manual? I intended to do this using my stand drill but ran out of time so just put it all back in the car and fired it up.

    "To test the dynamo on the bench (without regulator).
    - Connect the yellow wire EXC to the red wire DYN and the black wire to earth.
    -Cutting in speed at 13V with dynamo cold = 1,200 rpm
    -Output cold at 13V = 3.5 A at 1,500 rpm, = 22A at 2,500 rpm."

    Polarising a generator in Google seems to rely on touching a wire across 2 terminals on the regulator - is this the same thing or not as the bench test above? ID19 manual (and Ball's ID19/DS19 workshop manual) are silent on polarising unless this does it as a side consequence of the test.

    I ran the car for maybe 20 mins with the charge light on and possibly the wrong polarisation, is it likely (certain) or unlikely I have burnt out the regulator? The car is slumbering in an unpowered shed at a distance from home so I am not in a position to easily check it out until next weekend. Is the battery likley to have discharged in the meantime thanks to some polarity leakage?

    Is this polarising via shorting the regulator terminals as per google done when the motor is running (I suppose it must be, since otherwise the generator is doing nothing)?

    Cheers leconte
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

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    Addo,

    should I venture out to this shed with torch and spanners and disconnect the battery? This is 24 hours after parking the car there....

    regards,
    leconte
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

  21. #21
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Hi Leconte-

    I was poking around a bit puzzling this out too, but for different reasons. Anyway, I found this:

    Generator Polarization The pics are clickable to enlarge.

    This gives not only what polarizing a generator is, but it gives you a method to determine the way you need to do it. There are two different methods- basically, it's Ford, and everybody else. My own personal question was what polarizing method to use, since as you found, the manual only gives the rebuild instructions and the final output specs. I looked, but I just cannot determine from the "illustrations" which type of generator these are.

    Determine which generator you have (internal ground or external ground), polarize accordingly, and go from there.

    Polarising a generator in Google seems to rely on touching a wire across 2 terminals on the regulator - is this the same thing or not as the bench test above? ID19 manual (and Ball's ID19/DS19 workshop manual) are silent on polarising unless this does it as a side consequence of the test.
    No- it is not the same as the bench test. The bench test measures performance. Polarization basically tells the regulator how the field coils are grounded.

    I ran the car for maybe 20 mins with the charge light on and possibly the wrong polarisation, is it likely (certain) or unlikely I have burnt out the regulator? The car is slumbering in an unpowered shed at a distance from home so I am not in a position to easily check it out until next weekend. Is the battery likley to have discharged in the meantime thanks to some polarity leakage?
    Had you tried the polarization that time? If not, no. What's happened is any residual magnetism had gone away, basically telling the regulator there was nothing hooked up to it.

    There is no such thing as 'polarity leakage'. You can have a current draw, though if anything else on your car has a stuck-on condition, like a lamp for instance. I would recommend leaving the battery negative terminal off until you get things sorted. Unless of course you need battery power to do the job.

    Is this polarising via shorting the regulator terminals as per google done when the motor is running (I suppose it must be, since otherwise the generator is doing nothing)?
    IIRC, the motor need not be running. Just a quick zap will do it.
    Last edited by Hotrodelectric; 17th June 2014 at 12:30 AM. Reason: add more words
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Hi Leconte-

    I was poking around a bit puzzling this out too, but for different reasons. Anyway, I found this:

    Generator Polarization The pics are clickable to enlarge.

    This gives not only what polarizing a generator is, but it gives you a method to determine the way you need to do it. There are two different methods- basically, it's Ford, and everybody else. My own personal question was what polarizing method to use, since as you found, the manual only gives the rebuild instructions and the final output specs. I looked, but I just cannot determine from the "illustrations" which type of generator these are.

    Determine which generator you have (internal ground or external ground), polarize accordingly, and go from there.



    No- it is not the same as the bench test. The bench test measures performance. Polarization basically tells the regulator how the field coils are grounded.



    Had you tried the polarization that time? If not, no. What's happened is any residual magnetism had gone away, basically telling the regulator there was nothing hooked up to it.

    There is no such thing as 'polarity leakage'. You can have a current draw, though if anything else on your car has a stuck-on condition, like a lamp for instance. I would recommend leaving the battery negative terminal off until you get things sorted. Unless of course you need battery power to do the job.



    IIRC, the motor need not be running. Just a quick zap will do it.

    Thanks HotRodelectric,

    OK, I will go around tomorrow (not now @ midnight) and disconnect the battery. Will have to sort the rest out on the weekend. Work days are long and daylight short here at present.

    Was worried about (a) exhausting the battery (b) starting a fire and burning the car and shed to the ground (c) destroying the regulator (d) world peace in our time.

    Looks like if we can sort out the world peace thingy in the next couple of days, I can sort the rest out on Saturday or Sunday! Cross fingers that is...

    Prior to quite recently (say some intermittent long runs in the past month or so) this car was laid up for a long time (probably a few years). So hence more than possible the generator lost its residual magnetism.

    Cheers leconte
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Hi Leconte,

    I'm embarrassed to say that I still have your handbrake mechanism sitting by my backdoor! Apologies for that. Taking a bit of leave at the moment, hence noticed that you picked up john g-w's nice 62 ID...the best year...Just ask Donat!. Looking at your pics I'd say all your genie needs is brushes and a 'skim' of the commie. The appearance of contact is not all it seems in a car that has been sitting for a long time. 'Glazing' typically occurs, and it's likely that it was charging fine before John stopped driving her. Just needs a bit of life breathed into it, I estimate. Any decent (albeit old-fashioned) auto electrician can do that, but it's not right to charge a fortune for it. Equally I could catch up with you and introduce you to the man who used to do all such work for me. If the genie's out you could leave it with him for a few days and that would be that. You have a lovely, rare and very original car there. Shoot me your mobile again if you want to catch up on the weekend...from memory you're not far from me. I'd also be interested to check whether your gear changing issue is clutch/box or both...whatever the case, don't fret....these things sometimes pop up as cars spring back into use....just goes to show, using them is the way to go!

    Tim Cottrell



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    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Just rang my mate....Or sticky regulator!

    Tim

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    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    By the way, Leconte, while things are laid up, you may as well attend to the starter as well...probably it will cry out for attention next.

    Tim

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