ID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change
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Thread: ID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change

  1. #1
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    Default ID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change

    Hi all, want to change the oil in my 1962 ID19. Yes I have VMX oil and Nulon additive. Hoping to be able to select second gear afterwards!
    However just wanted to check that the large (21mm socket) bolt shown toward the bottom of the gearbox on the drivers side here is actually the filler plug.
    It seems a massive plug for"just" a filler and is very very low on the gearbox. I know we only put in 2 litres but even so the last 50 mls must be flowing out. The gearbox shafts must be splash lubricated?
    Can someone confirm please that this is the filler hole? I can't imagine what else it could be but mystified by the size and the very low location on the gearbox case.

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    Thanks leconte

    ID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change-imageuploadedbytapatalk1402302591.457874.jpgID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change-imageuploadedbytapatalk1402302601.058668.jpgID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change-imageuploadedbytapatalk1402302611.926209.jpg


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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    That's it. Big plug means it is easy to fill.

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson View Post
    That's it. Big plug means it is easy to fill.

    Roger
    Thanks Roger. I left the underbody pans and brake ducts off so next weekend I can get straight to onto it. A bit annoyed about second gear, I drove back from Mortlake with no problem whatsoever but since then, I cannot get it into second (let's say when cold as I haven't ventured far) at all, grates and grinds in a horrible fashion.

    I see the factory ID service manual specifies 3.6 pints = 2 litres of oil for the ID, whereas Kenneth Ball workshop manual specifies 2.8 pints. I imagine the factory manual is correct.

    regards, Leconte
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leconte View Post
    Thanks Roger. I left the underbody pans and brake ducts off so next weekend I can get straight to onto it. A bit annoyed about second gear, I drove back from Mortlake with no problem whatsoever but since then, I cannot get it into second (let's say when cold as I haven't ventured far) at all, grates and grinds in a horrible fashion.

    I see the factory ID service manual specifies 3.6 pints = 2 litres of oil for the ID, whereas Kenneth Ball workshop manual specifies 2.8 pints. I imagine the factory manual is correct.

    regards, Leconte
    Check the clutch ... I bet it's dragging. That car has the early type clutch lever like the one that broke on the Daylesford ID19 on the way home

    Don't worry about quantity, it''ll overflow when full. For a synchro to "suddenly" stop working I'd imagine it's completely broken (the synchro mesh ring that is)

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    Learn to double the clutch. I drove a 1963 Slough ID19 with stuffed 2nd gear synchro for several years in New Zealand. It's all part of the vibe of driving an old car.

    Roger
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    Ditto Shane. Check the clutch cable too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Check the clutch ... I bet it's dragging. That car has the early type clutch lever like the one that broke on the Daylesford ID19 on the way home

    Don't worry about quantity, it''ll overflow when full. For a synchro to "suddenly" stop working I'd imagine it's completely broken (the synchro mesh ring that is)

    seeya,
    shane L.
    Clutch pivot lever could be worn out , once that happens the lever itself tends to bend under the strain. I had mine rebushed and hardened up in Sydney. This has reminded me , supposed to give it a drop of oil every so often.
    cheers,
    john

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    Hi all,

    No progress on gearbox matters this past weekend, not through lack of trying but because I could not get the drain plug off the gearbox. Not enough room to get a 6 sided socket onto it - the drain plug is directly above the centre frame member that runs from the front horizontal crossmember back to the main cross support beam. Ring spanners would not shift the plug (even with a bit of rubber mallet / plastic mallet encouragement) and it is quite a small head so hard to get a grip on. I did not want to terminally round off the plug. I am thinking I need either a 6 sided ring spanner (or go buy a stahlwille ring spanner) or else nibble off a slice from the side of the frame so that a socket will fit. Has anyone else done this (taken a chunk from the apparently non-structural frame to be able to get a socket in)? The particular frame section does not appear to do much more than support the lower oil pans that screw on from below. The way it is, the drain plug when opened will drain all over this piece of frame and the waste oil will run away to both sides and make a real mess.

    The clutch lever at the end of the cable looks sound to me, not stressed or bent. I think the gearchange mechaism could do with adjustment (there is a fair bit of slop in the gear lever) but it does work. Spent what time I had this weekend fruitlessly working on the generator, that ended up appearing fine but back in place and still not raising much or any charge.

    So further to go on both fronts (gearbox/clutch and electrical charging system).

    All your input is appreciated.

    Cheers leconte

    ps to Roger - I do know how to double-clutch but it is not doing the trick for me as soon as I am actually moving. It will go into second at rest no problems. But if I start in second gear, when then trying to make the most out of second gear, the car starts uncontrollable surges (surge-lunge back-surge-lunge back etc) and then when I change up to third it struggles and almost dies. Is this a symptom of clutch problems? I havent driven such a badly behaved car in this respect so I'm out of my experience.
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    I think I used spanner but yes I remember there is no room so I have to bend that metal. Once done bend it back. No need to cut I think.
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leconte View Post
    Hi all,

    No progress on gearbox matters this past weekend, not through lack of trying but because I could not get the drain plug off the gearbox. Not enough room to get a 6 sided socket onto it - the drain plug is directly above the centre frame member that runs from the front horizontal crossmember back to the main cross support beam. Ring spanners would not shift the plug (even with a bit of rubber mallet / plastic mallet encouragement) and it is quite a small head so hard to get a grip on. I did not want to terminally round off the plug. I am thinking I need either a 6 sided ring spanner (or go buy a stahlwille ring spanner) or else nibble off a slice from the side of the frame so that a socket will fit. Has anyone else done this (taken a chunk from the apparently non-structural frame to be able to get a socket in)? The particular frame section does not appear to do much more than support the lower oil pans that screw on from below. The way it is, the drain plug when opened will drain all over this piece of frame and the waste oil will run away to both sides and make a real mess.

    The clutch lever at the end of the cable looks sound to me, not stressed or bent. I think the gearchange mechaism could do with adjustment (there is a fair bit of slop in the gear lever) but it does work. Spent what time I had this weekend fruitlessly working on the generator, that ended up appearing fine but back in place and still not raising much or any charge.

    So further to go on both fronts (gearbox/clutch and electrical charging system).

    All your input is appreciated.

    Cheers leconte

    ps to Roger - I do know how to double-clutch but it is not doing the trick for me as soon as I am actually moving. It will go into second at rest no problems. But if I start in second gear, when then trying to make the most out of second gear, the car starts uncontrollable surges (surge-lunge back-surge-lunge back etc) and then when I change up to third it struggles and almost dies. Is this a symptom of clutch problems? I havent driven such a badly behaved car in this respect so I'm out of my experience.
    Sounds like fuel starvation to me ... it'll run ok at very low loads, but as soon as you try to go, it leans out ...dies... gets a bit more fuel ... revs again ... leans out ... dies ....etc.... Check the tank pickup is clean, and dismantle and clean the "stack of discs" filter in the top of the fuel pump.

    Running lean is really obvious. Think of a really cold engine with the choke pushed in. My Ranger Rover and the 2cv run waaayy lean in cold weather IMO.... They try to kill when lean, you put your foot down to go ......... and the mongrel will instantly die.

    If this car had been layed up for any length of time you really do need to go through the obvious stuff like the cooling system, fuel system etc..... The don't like sitting. The tank will accumulate surface rust, and the modern petrol turns to a laquer like shit in no time if left sitting.

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    Shane L.
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    Hi Shane,

    Thanks for the tips. I know the car is not running well at all, and mentally have got fuel/carby and distributor timing in my sights. However I feel I have to conquer the generator/regulator issues and gearbox/clutch matters first. Also the brakes are very grabby / jerky and to be honest a bit far from good enough for the road. I am thinking there of bleeding them, and swapping out the accumulator sphere for a Richo-renovated (Reco-Sphere) one in the hope of dramatic improvement.

    Cooling system seems fine, no leaks of note and the temperature rises nicely and plateaus (I am lucky to have a roughly contemporary VDO oil pressure gauge and a VDO temperature gauge installed and both are working very well).

    My Short term need is to get it to a point where I can honestly take it to the club safety officer and say that it is safe to drive on the roads - albeit with due care and attention taking into account it's age (i.e. It does not have to be perfect). I cannot do this with no second gear, no reliable (charged) lighting, somehwat unconvincing brakes and the car running very poorly. And I do not have long to do this, so I have to work through these matters as quick as I can which is where the great help of AF members across all the threads I have going is so much appreciated. i do have a brand new set of tyres on 400mm rims ready to go on the car ( although the 15" ones on it are probably ok but are coming off anyway). So tyres are no problem as well. Gotta focus on the positives!

    cheers leconte
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leconte View Post
    Hi Shane,

    Thanks for the tips. I know the car is not running well at all, and mentally have got fuel/carby and distributor timing in my sights. However I feel I have to conquer the generator/regulator issues and gearbox/clutch matters first. Also the brakes are very grabby / jerky and to be honest a bit far from good enough for the road. I am thinking there of bleeding them, and swapping out the accumulator sphere for a Richo-renovated (Reco-Sphere) one in the hope of dramatic improvement.

    Cooling system seems fine, no leaks of note and the temperature rises nicely and plateaus (I am lucky to have a roughly contemporary VDO oil pressure gauge and a VDO temperature gauge installed and both are working very well).

    My Short term need is to get it to a point where I can honestly take it to the club safety officer and say that it is safe to drive on the roads - albeit with due care and attention taking into account it's age (i.e. It does not have to be perfect). I cannot do this with no second gear, no reliable (charged) lighting, somehwat unconvincing brakes and the car running very poorly. And I do not have long to do this, so I have to work through these matters as quick as I can which is where the great help of AF members across all the threads I have going is so much appreciated. i do have a brand new set of tyres on 400mm rims ready to go on the car ( although the 15" ones on it are probably ok but are coming off anyway). So tyres are no problem as well. Gotta focus on the positives!

    cheers leconte

    fix it's running first.... I would be far from suprised if the brakes came good with some use. the blue ID19 brakes were absolutely shithouse when I first got it... they even dragged once..... A bit of use and there brilliant now, potent, never grab ... never stick..... It did have rebuilt calipers a few years back, the pistons were just sticking from lack of use.

    Once it's running right .... check the clutch for dragging/not fully disengaging etc.....

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    There wuld be very few ID19's that have been cared for since new. Most have been badly neglected at some stage, but too little use can cause problems too. The brakes and gearbox may improve with some use - 2nd gear synchro is an odd thing with sliding pins. Distributor timing doesn't tend to alter with lack of use, unless the automatic advance gums up. This was a very common issue with the Jaguar V12 HE engine as the original distributor lubricant hardened and jammed the distributor at a very advanced position and it then ran like a dog, if at all. Perhaps, lubricate it before moving the timing or you may add another problem before eliminating the root cause. As already alluded to by someone else, the dynamo issue could be partly due to glazed parts and there does seem to be a fair amount of carbon dust in there. Check the continuity of the wiring with a multimeter as a terminal/joint may look good, but not be.

    How old is the fuel? Have you filled it since you acquired it? I know of a D in Sydney that has had very little use in the past few years and the lack of performance and stuttering experiences by the owner was almost entirely due to stale fuel and varnish/debris accumulating in the carburettor, a Weber in that case. If the fuel is largely stale, drain off as much as you can and replace it with fresh 98 and check the filter and carby for debris. That might be a good place to begin.
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    Hi David & Shane,

    The list of things to check out immediately is growing! The fueld "should" be OK as the prior owner filled the tank (he used 91 octane). On the way back to Melbourne after about 160kms I topped it up with 95 octane then drove another 80km or so (Geelong to Eltham). We both use the valve saver fluid. Of course there may be gunk in the filters/carby from the past so I will get to that.

    Based on feedback I will probably look at the fuel system now before the distributor timing, it seems simpler and I am probably more able to tackle it competently. I have used timing lights in the past on things like celicas and corollas but this timing by ping or the keyhole on the pinion ring and the TDC approach is another matter again.

    thanks again (sounding like a broken record but I mean it). I hope also that by recording the issues and the fixes here that life can be easier for others in future, as I benefit by browsing and searching the forums for old posts about these matters. Interesting that doing a google search on these topics usually directs me back to Aussiefrogs anyway, that says a lot about the store of information here.

    Thanks also to Jaahn who has sent me some emails as well.

    regards, leconte

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    Hi all, just ro close off this thread, successfully changed the gearbox oil on the weekend. I did have to bend away the metal member under the drain plug to be able to get a 6-sided 21mm impact socket on it. Once that was done had no trouble loosening it. The copper washer on the drain plug was in a very bad state and wedged into some threads, probably why it was so hard to shift. Replaced the washer with a 5/8 th inch copper washer from Autobarn that seems a perfect fit. On filling, initially I could only get 1,300 ml of VMX-80 plus 125ml of Nulon G70 in, so I jacked up the front drivers side a few more inches and managed to get about another 250ml in before it was flowing out the fill hole. I attach Photos for posterity of the drain plug situation (bent frame member) and filler plug / drain plug after cleaning. I bent back the metal frame reasonably well, with a few bubbles / ridges left having stretched the metal but the drivers side drain pan should cover that when it goes back on.

    Due to work on the generator I have not had a chance to drive the car any distance to assess whether this makes any difference to second gear or not. About the same amount of oil was drained out, it didn't look too bad considering it is some 17 years old.

    Cheers leconte

    ID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change-imageuploadedbytapatalk1403528174.421318.jpgID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change-imageuploadedbytapatalk1403528198.721104.jpgID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change-imageuploadedbytapatalk1403528215.988750.jpgID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change-imageuploadedbytapatalk1403528227.606993.jpgID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change-imageuploadedbytapatalk1403528240.840898.jpg


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    Hi Leconte,
    I would not expect that changing the gearbox oil will have an instant magic effect. It will have to be driven and warmed up for the oil to penetrate the parts and the additives to work into the system.
    Other advice to get it going properly and drive it a bit, and get it a bit hot too, is good advice. Perhaps for the sake of the gearbox, you could put it on blocks and run it in the gears, stationary and also check the carby function etc, if that is easier than driving ATM. Carefully !!
    Good luck jaahn

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    Default ID19 (1962) Gearbox oil change

    Ahem,

    well I had a revelation on the short drive from shed to home today. Not quite the damascus road but not too far short.

    It seems between the long drive down from Mortlake, and the next time I drove the car, I forgot the shift pattern. So I have been starting in second thinking it is first and then (trying to) shift into first thinking it was second.

    Extremely embarrassed to admit this! So second gear is alive and well and now beautifully lubricated for a while to come.

    I do have a question though. I have moved onto the fuel system - Guiot pump and Solex 34PBIC carby - to clean every filter I come across. First the Guiot pump, which has a filter made up of a grid of perhaps 50 or 60 fine washers in the tower of the fuel pump. There was a fair bit of fine grit in the fuel pump body that has been cleaned out, nothing significant I think.

    However, there is no clamp on the inlet fuel line from the tank into the Guiot fuel pump. It is just a right angled rubber sleever pushed onto the alloy fuel pump inlet pipe (which is about 15mm long). Is this right or should there be a ligarex or other clamp on the inlet fuel line? Please see pictures below. I have good access at present as the generator is out to be reconditioned, so the battery is also out. I'd like to know if I should clamp up the fuel inlet line before everything goes back in.

    Yours sheepishly, leconte

    Attachment 57690

    Attachment 57691

    Attachment 57692

    Attachment 57693
    Last edited by Leconte; 28th June 2014 at 10:28 PM.
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
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  18. #18
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leconte View Post
    Ahem,

    well I had a revelation on the short drive from shed to home today. Not quite the damascus road but not too far short.

    It seems between the long drive down from Mortlake, and the next time I drove the car, I forgot the shift pattern. So I have been starting in second thinking it is first and then (trying to) shift into first thinking it was second.

    Extremely embarrassed to admit this! So second gear is alive and well and now beautifully lubricated for a while to come.

    I do have a question though. I have moved onto the fuel system - Guiot pump and Solex 34PBIC carby - to clean every filter I come across. First the Guiot pump, which has a filter made up of a grid of perhaps 50 or 60 fine washers in the tower of the fuel pump. There was a fair bit of fine grit in the fuel pump body that has been cleaned out, nothing significant I think.

    However, there is no clamp on the inlet fuel line from the tank into the Guiot fuel pump. It is just a right angled rubber sleever pushed onto the alloy fuel pump inlet pipe (which is about 15mm long). Is this right or should there be a ligarex or other clamp on the inlet fuel line? Please see pictures below. I have good access at present as the generator is out to be reconditioned, so the battery is also out. I'd like to know if I should clamp up the fuel inlet line before everything goes back in.

    Yours sheepishly, leconte

    Attachment 57690

    Attachment 57691

    Attachment 57692

    Attachment 57693
    It's the inlet side of the pump... Suction. It wouldn't blow off.


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    i put a cable tie
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    Quote Originally Posted by caparobertsan View Post
    i put a cable tie
    Not secure enough! They are plastic and stretch when warm. Use Ligarex bands and clips. Can be purchased as a kit from
    The 2cv site, Ecas 2cv parts, fast mail order spare parts for Deux Chevaux
    Cheers Gerry

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    If you have no Ligarex, look for hose clamps or strapping as used by driveshaft workshops for their gaiters. If you ever need a long hoseclamp and only have short ones, you can daisy chain two or more to make a long one in the same way you can with more than one cable tie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Not secure enough! They are plastic and stretch when warm. Use Ligarex bands and clips. Can be purchased as a kit from
    The 2cv site, Ecas 2cv parts, fast mail order spare parts for Deux Chevaux
    I got them yes they are great! For some reason I love using Ligarex, I love how the tool pull the tape. Recently I have replaced drive shaft boot of my ID and It worked perfectly.
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    So Gerry and David recommend a clamp on the fuel line inlet to the carby. I do have ligarex (like you Caporobertsan I seem to get inordinate pleasure out of using it) so will apply some gently over the rubber inlet piece, with some cloth tape between ligarex and rubber to minimise cutting into the rubber. Will call thornbury carburettors during the week and see if they can service the carby or supply a kit for it. I cleaned the very small filter in the carby today, only a small amount of grit in it, looked in the throat and saw at least that the air correction tube and brass screw holding it in place looks fine and not broken, although I did not try to disassemble it.

    I have been referring to some old threads mainly by Shane and Caporobertsan on the Solex carby for reference, once again Aussiefrogs is a very useful resource and provides real world experience above and beyond the pure repair manuals & workshop books.

    Cheers leconte
    Last edited by Leconte; 30th June 2014 at 07:43 PM.
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    Yes, ligarex works well with muscular pains - just apply gently - works with tendonitis too
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    Leconte,
    If your ID has the Solex 34PBIC then I recommend that you fit a grub screw to the inlet pipe. They are only pressed into the float bowl cover and have been known to come loose. This is a problem on the ID as the carb is on the ignition side of the engine. There have been several instances of ID s going up in flames because this pipe came loose and sprayed fuel over the distributor!
    Cheers Gerry

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