Muffler Madness
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Thread: Muffler Madness

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Default Muffler Madness

    Sanity? What Sanity?

    For some time now Moby Dick has been puffy in the exhaust. Now before you accuse me of making tasteless homophobic jokes, I refer to the sound the muffler makes when it has holes in it that are partially covered. (You knew that of course!)

    Having researched the cost and availability of replacement, I'm confident that (a) I can purchase a new one and (b) I can't afford it at the moment as funds are a bit tight. So when the funds are available I will most likely invest in a new one, but in the meantime, being the ratbag that I am, I've decided to have a go at repairing the existing muffler to stave off the inevitable.

    A secondary advantage of doing this is to gain some practice (much needed) in mig welding thin steel on something that won't be all that visible before I start on the welding of new sections into Gaston.

    So herewith part 1 of the trials and tribulations of repairing the DS Muffler.

    First thing was to elevate Moby to a height where I could at least fit under to extract the unit. Note the strength of the stands. I don't want to be a people pizza. The stands are under a pair of short hardwood planks positioned at the strongest points.

    There was a bit of "consumer resistance" to the flex pipe being removed from the input, but I figured that if I slotted the pipe on the muffler I could make good while the welder was stoked up. I won!

    Once on the bench the first obstacle was visible. These buggers are double skinned top and bottom! Hey nonny no! Let's drill out the spot welds then with our new whizz bang spot weld drill. Oh, I'd figured I needed to remove the skin on the bottom of the muffler because the black marks of escaping poofy gases were at various points around the perimeter thereof, but no holes were visible. (Photo 2)

    After 60 odd holes (count 'em!) we arrived at photo 3 with the skin removed and in photo 4 you can see the main offenders exposed and outlined. (And a blunt spot weld embuggerator)

    Obviously these holes are caused by moisture sitting and quietly rotting the metal away. Short of driving the car every day or replacing it with stainless, I can't see an easy remedy for long term restoration, but short term I'm just going to weld it all up and seal it and see how it goes.

    After a surgical strike with the angle grinder and a thin cutting blade we arrived at photo 5, also showing the first patch being made and fitted.

    That's where it's at for the nonce. I'm having a tea break and a rest. It's also probably best if I don't show my first attempts at welding lest viewers run away gagging and screaming!

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    Part 2 will follow when I've had a bit more success with the welding practice and girded the loins a bit more.

    Cheers for now, Pottsy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Muffler Madness-muff-1.jpg   Muffler Madness-muff-2.jpg   Muffler Madness-muff-3.jpg   Muffler Madness-muff-4.jpg   Muffler Madness-muff-5.jpg  
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

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    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's) Grandma's Taxi
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick") Weekend Warrior
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    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned Traveller
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  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    What on earth is the idea of that 2nd layer Your never going to weld super thin rusted muffler

    I have to deal with the exhaust on the blue ID19 too... I'm not looking forward to it. It appears the flex pipe has seperated from the end bits. The strange bit is the flex pipe looks new. I might see if I can modify a CX flex exhaust to fit. That stainless pipe is a crazy design ... designed to break that is!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Default In your footsteps

    VERY interested in how you get on Pottsy. I'm about to do the same. With my DS the only obvious hole is in sight on the left hand side lower hemispherical section. The car has been sitting for quite some time on a port list and I suspect condensate has puddled here and eaten this rust-hole. I was being stupidly optimistic that this is the only hole but I will be following your more ambitious adventure with interest in case I need to follow in your footsteps.
    By the way does anyone know if these mufflers are available in stainless in case my plan goes pear shape? I can get the tail pipes in stainless and the prospect of long life for this part is appealing.

    SF

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy View Post

    That's where it's at for the nonce. I'm having a tea break and a rest. It's also probably best if I don't show my first attempts at welding lest viewers run away gagging and screaming!

    Part 2 will follow when I've had a bit more success with the welding practice and girded the loins a bit more.

    Cheers for now, Pottsy
    Persevere Ray, you'll get a bit more life out of that old muffler yet

    Only tips I can give as a novice to mig is to make sure both the repair panel and the old metal are bright and clean where you are welding. I can't run a bead of weld so am an advocate of join the dots, multiple spot welds until you join and seal.

    You've done a heap better than I have with your 'spot weld drill bit', I bought a you beaut bit that has gone blunt after drilling out maybe a dozen welds at best, I can't see a way to sharpen it either as it has a centering tip?

    Cheers
    Chris
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  5. #5
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    Ian Steele ( Just Cits at Maleny Queensland ) had a local artisan build stainless steel mufflers. They were a real work of art. While expensive they would certainly outlast the original mild steel stuff. As Henry Royce used to say " The quality remains long after the price is forgotten". I am uncertain if he gets them in a batch or has a constant regular supply. I know what I'd be doing.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Part 2, the Madness Continues.

    OK, so I've been having a play with the mig and learning rapidly. Almost the lowest setting and a wire speed of "2" (units unknown)

    Still a lot of what we used to call Cocky Shit when learning to use a stick welder, but not too bad I reckon. First shot shows the abovementioned Galah Excretion on the right, but how it grinds up roughly on the left. The second shot is my afternoon's achievement, of which I'm quietly proud.

    Still one or two spots need a bit of re-attention, but I'm confident it's gotta be better than it was if I can keep up the standard.

    Shane, it looks like the rust was concentrated in a couple of low points. The metal either side of the cuts I've made is full strength (such as it is) and not corroded at all as far as I can see. Having experienced trying to "join the holes together" with brazing on a muffler once, I wouldn't have gone this far if the metal was partly gone.

    So we progress.

    Thanks for the comments and advice so far chaps. Between us all we may yet get it right!

    Cheers, Pottsy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Muffler Madness-muff-half-half.jpg   Muffler Madness-muff-proud.jpg  
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's) Grandma's Taxi
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick") Weekend Warrior
    2015 C4 Grand Picasso ("Pablo") Workhorse & Grandpa's Taxi
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned Traveller
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Bonsai CX
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  7. #7
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Why did you not braze it?

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Why did you not braze it?
    Adam, I already have a lot of experience brazing, and as I explained in the first post, I wanted to practice and refine my mig welding skills before tackling the tinsel that is a 1982 2CV.

    Possibly brazing would be better in some ways. I may even use it to fill up any awkward holes before I finish.

    But it's all about trying something that sensible people wouldn't do.

    Call it timewasting or extending the boundaries of human experience, either way it's fun!

    Cheers, Pottsy
    GreenBlood likes this.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's) Grandma's Taxi
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick") Weekend Warrior
    2015 C4 Grand Picasso ("Pablo") Workhorse & Grandpa's Taxi
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned Traveller
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Bonsai CX
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    actually that looks really good. Try this, it may (or may not ) help. Turn the wire feed as low as it will go (and slowly increase it watching how it effects the arc), and turn the power as low as it'l go, you may find it'll allow you to run a small 1/2" runs of weld before you start making too many holes.

    The wire speed on a MIG has an enormous impact on the quality of the weld... As much as the power level does!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Well the muffler is now as good as it's ever gunna be with my limited skills and patience.

    Over the day I've zapped, brushed, sworn, ground, zapped, ground, sworn.... you get the picture.

    By the late afternoon I've almost nailed the right settings on my welder for this stuff.

    I should mention that the welder is a Unimig 120 with three switches that bear little or no resemblance to the info in the manual that came with it. (the switches are from L to R 1/A 2/3 MIN/MAX.)

    For the purpose of posterity, I'm running the switches at "A, 2, MIN" with a wire feed speed of 2, 0.6mm mild steel solid wire and a big bottle of the right gas. It seems to work.

    If anyone has a Unimig 120 with a clear description of the effect of the settings, I'm keen to hear from you!

    Anyway, back to the reason for all this angst.

    I've finished all the welding I'm going to do on it and painted it. I reckon that even if there're still the odd hole or two, and I'm sure there will be as I'm definitely not Super Welder Bloke, they've got to be smaller than the gaping cavities I started with.

    If it's still a bit poofy then so be it. It'll hopefully last the Winter through and I can think about a replacement later on.

    The paint I've used is an old favourite, Killrust epoxy in a shiny black. Hopefully it's also thick enough to fill up some of the many pinholes I'm sure to have left behind. If not, see the paragraph above.

    Assuming it's dry enough, tomorrow may well see the unit bolted back under the Whale, grand-daughter minding permitting.

    So there you have it. I hope the pictures are self explanatory enough and also hope better men than I are encouraged to have a go, waste a day or two and save a quid or three for a time.

    If nothing else, I reckon I've at least gained the confidence in thin sheet welding not to make a complete balls up of the upcoming restoration work on Gaston, followed by Alphonse eventually.

    Cheers, it's getting close to Beer o'clock.

    Pottsy

    PS. Anyone care to guess the identity of the bench I'm using to paint on?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Muffler Madness-muff-finished-welding.jpg   Muffler Madness-muff-finished.jpg  
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's) Grandma's Taxi
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick") Weekend Warrior
    2015 C4 Grand Picasso ("Pablo") Workhorse & Grandpa's Taxi
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned Traveller
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Bonsai CX
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  11. #11
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    There will be a million and one pinholes ... trust me on this Do you have an open tube of silicon there? If you do, when it dries wire brush the welds (so the silicon can key in nice and strong) and run a bead of silicon over all the welds. It'll stick until the metal has rotted away again. It's a lot better than muffler putty and will handle the temperatures of a muffler easily.

    Then it won't "blow" through all the little holes . Ever get the feeling I've been here before

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  12. #12
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    "Bench" is a @CV chassis!

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Actually, Shane, my mind may have been running along the same lines as yours. Yes, that's scary!

    I was contemplating whether to try to re-instate the large plate, now full of holes. I'm guessing this plate provides a bit of strength as well as acoustic dampening, and even a bit of protection given that it's under the car.

    The thought that came to me was to cut a new piece of plate to size and shape, then glue it on with a bead of silicone or ten all around. This way, if (when) the repairs rust through there would be another layer of metal between the exhaust and the atmosphere.

    That may well be a task for the morrow.

    Cheers, Pottsy
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's) Grandma's Taxi
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick") Weekend Warrior
    2015 C4 Grand Picasso ("Pablo") Workhorse & Grandpa's Taxi
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned Traveller
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Bonsai CX
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2CV David View Post
    "Bench" is a @CV chassis!
    Ah, not much gets past you my man!

    It is in fact the replacement for the very rusty underpinnings of Gaston.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's) Grandma's Taxi
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick") Weekend Warrior
    2015 C4 Grand Picasso ("Pablo") Workhorse & Grandpa's Taxi
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned Traveller
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Bonsai CX
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    The Poofs have Left the Building!

    Today has seen a concentrated effort to restore Moby from his lofty heights to ground level equipped with a Puff Free muffler and a couple of other minor repair tasks. Along with returning the muffler to its rightful place, I also replaced a rear suspension boot and changed the wheels over to my spare set (Goodyear Ducaros which are quieter and cheaper than the Michelin light truck jobbies). A check of the rear brakes and a few other minor things and back on the ground he went.

    Have to say that for the moment I'm happy with the muffler repair. Only time will show how long it's gunna last, but if it sees me through the Winter I'll be happy.

    I ended up deciding that the extra effort of adding a replacement cover plate, acoustic damper, bash shield, whatever you want to call it, was probably futile.

    I used half a tube of Dow Corning Silastic 732 on all of the welded bits. The theory being that it's covering any pinholes and also that it's good for about 300 degrees C, so I don't anticipate it failing any time soon. It cured solid over night so the muffler went on as was.

    Of course, the Silastic could get scraped on the ground, but I'll take that risk.

    The car is certainly much more pleasant to pilot now that every acceleration isn't coupled with strangling puffiness from beneath the beast.

    Thanks to all who responded. Your advice and encouragement has kept me going, along with a few cans of Mr XXXX's finest of course.

    Until the next time I spit the dummy and decide to tackle the economically unviable and ridiculous, cheers, Pottsy
    Last edited by pottsy; 2nd May 2014 at 11:03 PM.
    GreenBlood likes this.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's) Grandma's Taxi
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick") Weekend Warrior
    2015 C4 Grand Picasso ("Pablo") Workhorse & Grandpa's Taxi
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned Traveller
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Bonsai CX
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger
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    You have at least been using a decent MIG welder. I wanted to see how a cheap gasless, flux-cored kit would behave and made the error of buying a (too) cheapie for $169 posted. A Mishto 130 via ePay to be precise. It joined some scrap, with plenty of splatter, so it has to be given at least that accolade. However, although I wasn't expecting much and didn't get it, the surprise with this kit is that the feed wire is always live and not controlled by the trigger as you usually expect with a MIG. I copped a welding flash because I simply wasn't expecting it to be live and there was nothing in the description or manual even suggesting the wire is always live. It's also sold with a simple hand held shade, which makes it hard to get started in the right place. So, it's not much more than a glorified stick welder and the always live wire makes it inconvenient to use and a potential risk to the eyes. Vendor helpfully says that's how they are. There are better toys in the arsenal, but a few modifications might make this one at least more convenient to use. Wearing an auto-darkening helmet is not always ideal and would be prone to damage with a lot of splatter.

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