Wher to buy a DS water pump with airconditioning
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Balki's Avatar
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    Default Wher to buy a DS water pump with airconditioning

    Any body know where i can buy one or have one they want to sell, must be for aircon with the 3 groove pulley

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  2. #2
    Member Pommiefrog's Avatar
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    Hi there,

    Here's a source from my side of the world:

    Water pump for models with air conditioning
    Regards,

    George
    Leicestershire, England
    1971 DS21 EFI, Pallas, BVH, Blog:http://www.mypallas.net

  3. #3
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    The cheap ones have the added advantage(not)of the impellers falling off inside the casing. To visually check before purchase the end of the shaft is not flush with the impeller.

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    Fellow Frogger! Boyracer's Avatar
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    Jason Hantos supplies these. He did one for me recently.

    Via the aussiefrogs App
    Cheers,
    Michael

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    Citroen Car Club of NSW - Member

    1974 Citroen DS23 non Pallas BW Auto/Carby with Air-conditioning [AC640 Delta Blue]
    1972 Citroen DS21 5SPD EFI Pallas [AC088 Blanc Meije]

    2012 Citroen C5 Exclusive 3.0L Auto Diesel [Noir Perla Nera]



  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger
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    The OP just wanted to know where to obtain a suitable pump, not buy into an argument from the wrong side of the Pacific.

    Comparing a three pulley pump and a two pulley pump, the conversion should not be that hard if you have a factory pump to begin with and other suitable tools. Both the 2 and 3 row pulleys are of composite construction riveted together. The 3 row pulley is made by adding in an extra single pulley that appears to be a cast item rather than pressed steel. I'd think one could buy some generic cast pulley that could be made to fit here. The rear pressed twin pulley and front fan holder appear common to both pumps. The centre seems to be the same and it is left proud on the 2 pulley pump. Here are some pictures and you see the fan is pushed forward.

    Wher to buy a DS water pump with airconditioning-dswpump_pulley2.jpg Wher to buy a DS water pump with airconditioning-dswpump_pulley1.jpg

    Removing the pulley can be difficult. I gave up on the 2 row pump! You will crush the rear pulley if you place it directly on the press, so you need to press against the back of the riveted boss using a split ring like this DIY number. It rests on a bearing splitter on the press and the pulley can then be pressed off without being damaged. These are approx 50mm ID and you have to clear the nose of the pump, which is tapered slightly

    Wher to buy a DS water pump with airconditioning-dswpump_pulleyring.jpg

    The bearing issue is that the front bearing might be a wider bearing than is used for a non-AC pump and the spacer that fits between the bearings is shorter as a result. In the few pumps I've dismantled, the front bearings have been 6301 or the wider 62301, the difference being 12mm increases to 17mm. As these are both single row bearings and the 62301 basically just has a wider case, they have about the same load rating. So, there doesn't really seem to be any good reason to widen the bearing in that case unless one wants to spread the load over a wider area of the pump housing. I'm not sure whether the recess used with a 6301 bearing needs to be bored deeper to take the 62301 bearing. They may all be the same depth with the spacer being the difference. Or it may just be that the pumps with a 62301 bearing have been modified to take that wider bearing. Given the load ratings are about the same, there doesn't seem much point is changing the housing to take a 62301 bearing if the 6301 is the only one that fits as is. However, a 4301 bearing is a double row bearing of 12x37x17mm like the 62301 and does have a higher load rating by about 1/3rd more.

    Wher to buy a DS water pump with airconditioning-dswpump_brng1.jpg Wher to buy a DS water pump with airconditioning-dswpump_brng2.jpg

    The original steel static portion of the seal is shown in in these pictures and you can see the drain and vent holes. These correspond to drillings in the body, so they need to line up with either this or a DIY static seal support. The slightly rusty drift has a 30mm OD head.

    Wher to buy a DS water pump with airconditioning-dswpump_seal1.jpg Wher to buy a DS water pump with airconditioning-dswpump_seal2.jpg Wher to buy a DS water pump with airconditioning-dswpump_seal3.jpg


    Or you can turn up a custom pulley with 3 rows to press onto the inexpensive 2 row aftermarket pumps.
    Last edited by David S; 27th April 2014 at 09:48 PM.

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    Fellow Frogger! Balki's Avatar
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    thanks for the responses my pump is okay as it doesnt leak but has some play in the bearings and i thought while it was out i should fix them, might have a go at pressing it apart and replacing the bearing and checking how worn the seal is

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    Be very, very careful removing the pulley. The Aircon pulleys are very scarce and valuable. I have rebuilt quite a few over the years and I found a better way than trying to press the pulley off is to drill and tap the hub (between the rivets) to something like M6, then use a harmonic balancer puller to pull the pulley off the shaft. That way you are guaranteed not to distort the pulley. A bearing ball somewhat smaller than 11mm placed at the end of the shaft works a charm as a distance piece under the puller's ram.

    Once the pulley is off you can press the shaft out of the pump (being careful not to catch the impeller on anything)

    Also when reassembling, balance the pump shaft on the same bearing ball (notice the indentation in the impeller shaft for this purpose). That way you are certain NOT to load the impeller (which will snap off).

    Cheers,
    John Titus

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    Hi,
    I have a 3 pulley amongst my spares. As my resto is complete and the a/c is in, it's ok to sell and I was going to put it on ebay. The pump itself will need a rebuild but the pulley is all there.
    $50 plus postage from Melb.
    Cheers,
    Rob

  9. #9
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    Actually your pump is leaking - just not externally, yet. Problem is typically a plugged vacuum relief hole/drain hose hole. Prevents water that is seeping past the seal from making it out of the drain hole. The bit of wobble you feel in the shaft is being caused by the rear (inner most) bearing wearing out. That in turn is putting an excessive slide load on the front or main bearing.

    The only difference between the two and three pulley pumps as supplied by the factory was the pulley. And they are not at all difficult to press apart if one has the proper tools. If not , then you need to use a puller as John suggested.

    The factory seal system was the main culprit. It consists of a machine steel (polished) stationary plate and a phenolic rotating shaft seal. The problem is that over time the stationary steel plate becomes pitted from corrosion. Once that happens the seal will leak. With all of pumps I have rebuilt over the years (going on 40+) I have yet to see one where the phenolic rotating seal actually 'wore' out or failed. The leakage has always been due to the failure of the stationary steel seal.

    The two pulley replacement pumps are quite good. Have a ceramic stationary seal that is impervious to wear and the affects of the cooling system water. The problem is that the pulleys on those units are heat fitted to the shaft. Makes it almost impossible to remove with out damaging the body of the pump. If you try to remove using the method John suggested you run a 3 out of 4 chance of the Al pulley breaking or just pulling the bolts you put in right out of their threads. If you want to go that route you will need to carefully cut off the cast Al pulley and then press on your 3 groove unit.

    Regardless of which way you go - do yourself a favor. Once the new or rebuilt pump is in the car use a small dia drill to clean out the vacuum relief hole in the top of the housing and the drain tube opening each time you change the engine oil. That way if the seal ever does start to seep the pump will drain the water out of its internal leak chamber and prevent it from getting into the rear bearing.

    If you want to attempt and rebuild your pump realize that you will have to either find or adapt a shaft seal to the pump. The original one cannot be reused once apart (and not sure why you would want to). Vulcan Seals in England use to supply a seal kit that was easily adapted to the pump body core. The bearing, themselves, are 12x32x10 (inner) and 12x37x14 (outer). Would suggest that you use 'Shielded' one as opposed to 'Sealed' as the grease used in the 'shielded' bearing resists much higher temperatures.

    Steve
    Last edited by Citroenfan; 16th September 2014 at 12:10 PM.

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    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterd View Post
    Hi,
    I have a 3 pulley amongst my spares. As my resto is complete and the a/c is in, it's ok to sell and I was going to put it on ebay. The pump itself will need a rebuild but the pulley is all there.
    $50 plus postage from Melb.
    Cheers,
    Rob
    Sent you a PM
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    Fascinating to see so much instant experience on tap. Thanks from an outsider to DS pumps!
    JohnW

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  12. #12
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    David,
    I have my 3 pulley DS water pump apart. Shaft out etc. To get the static half of the mechanical seal out if I read your note correctly it's approximately a 30mm dia drift to tap it out.

    Any idea where a replacement seal can be purchased?

    Garry

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