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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 2cv retractable rear seatbelts

    Hi folks,

    i just had a read of a post on the 2cv site with a white car for sale at Toowoomba.

    It said to get it registered here, amongst things which are in my opinion utterly ridiculous...2 speed wipers, bars in door (where and how?), reversing light (mine doesn't have one and never any incidents but yes, I see the practicality with that one)...but some will surely disagree.

    The big item was retractable rear seatbelts which I have literally been looking for for years.

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    Tried every catalogue...nothing.

    Has anyone had these made or know where to source from?

    I would love new belts in rear of my car, but hate those lap ones. I suppose they would be illegal if trying to register an import.

    Chris Mortimer

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    JBN
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    Yes. One one of the two 2CVs I imported from the UK in the mid 90's, I had retractable rear seat belts. On both cars, an engineer designed a metal frame (1" square tube) with two uprights going from the floor next to the internal mudguards to the roof line, with a transverse 2" X 1" tube just behind the top od the rear seat. This had small plates with a hole for the attachments of child seat restraints (there is no exemption for gay couples).


    The car with retractable lap/sash belts had the spool mounted on a plate at the bottom of the upright. That plate was 2" angle iron and bolted both into the floor and sideways into the mudguard inner. The other one had non retracting belts as my children were of an age when they one was just able to use adult belts and the other needed a booster seat coupled with adult belts. I would rather adjust the tension of the belts myself at the time the seatbelt is fastened onto the child then leave it up to the belt lock at the time of an accident.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by qmusic View Post
    Hi folks,

    i just had a read of a post on the 2cv site with a white car for sale at Toowoomba.

    It said to get it registered here, amongst things which are in my opinion utterly ridiculous...2 speed wipers, bars in door (where and how?), reversing light (mine doesn't have one and never any incidents but yes, I see the practicality with that one)...but some will surely disagree.

    The big item was retractable rear seatbelts which I have literally been looking for for years.

    Tried every catalogue...nothing.

    Has anyone had these made or know where to source from?

    I would love new belts in rear of my car, but hate those lap ones. I suppose they would be illegal if trying to register an import.

    Chris Mortimer
    I think you should sell it too me ............... I'll put it on a club permit and just drive it. I'd rather fixed belts either way, there safer and less effort. It is after all a 2cv ..... barely a step up from a motorbike safety wise. If your concerned about the type of seatbelts and intrustion bars, simply don't drive one

    Even if you managed to fit intrustion bars.... Um, 2cv body structure, what could they possibly engage into that wouldn't just collapse

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: There''s an easy way around this you know..... I'd "buy" a 60's or 70's build plate for a wreck in the UK/france and affix it to the car.
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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I think you should sell it too me ............... I'll put it on a club permit and just drive it. I'd rather fixed belts either way, there safer and less effort. It is after all a 2cv ..... barely a step up from a motorbike safety wise. If your concerned about the type of seatbelts and intrustion bars, simply don't drive one

    Even if you managed to fit intrustion bars.... Um, 2cv body structure, what could they possibly engage into that wouldn't just collapse

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: There''s an easy way around this you know..... I'd "buy" a 60's or 70's build plate for a wreck in the UK/france and affix it to the car.
    Then all you would need to do is explain how the car (which had never been registered in Australia) ended up being in Australia. If it was that easy, everyone would have done it by now. You can buy a blank build plate from ECAS and just add your own details. Unfortunately, that doesn't work.

    I would suspect that many of the later 2CV arrivals from the UK are probably nice paint jobs over rusty bodywork. They are imported as a business venture, rather than being private imports of cars by their owners.

    The two that I imported (under the latter category, one owned by me and one owned by my wife) came out in 1994 - twenty years ago and spending most of their lives in drier, sunny Australia. One spent its first 8 years in the UK, whilst the other spent its first 5 years there.

    Fortunately both were registered in NSW when the RTA did the compliance checks. Apart from a seatbelt frame for the rear seatbelts to allow for lap/sash belts instead of the factory standard lap belts, the only thing needing change was the engine number was stamped into the block rather than the rivetted on plate from Citroen. They were interested in the windscreen glass and other windows glass that it complied and also with the seatbelts. My Klipan seatbelts didn't appear to comply, so they were replaced by Klipan belts that did comply. The latter had some symbol that they met Australian standards. The original ones didn't as no one knew or cared where Australia was.

    John

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Chris, IIRC the retractable belts are German spec. You could try Der Franzose for a start.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Easy, I copied this for mine.
    2cv retractable rear seatbelts-rear-belt-1.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-rear-belt-2.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-rear-belt-3.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-rear-belt.jpg


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    my understanding is that to be registered a 2cv needs to meet the ADRs matching the year of manufacture. Thus, an earlier car would need much less work that a later car. A mid 70s 602 may be fractionally slower that a 1990 car to drive but perhaps a far better option

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Chris, IIRC the retractable belts are German spec. You could try Der Franzose for a start.
    You want to ensure they will meet the relevant AS (per Standards Orstraylia) rather than just fitting them and hoping they will be accepted. Seatbelts were usually one of the items that people had to change when importing cars in the past. Perhaps, borrow the layout but obtain the rollers and belts locally?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IE23 View Post
    Easy, I copied this for mine.
    It looks very tidy, but are the pop rivets under the roller related to the belts??? What do the belts mount onto? I know the 2cv steel is lightweight, but you'd have to be adding some backing plates to spread the load and make the fixing points as secure as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    You want to ensure they will meet the relevant AS (per Standards Orstraylia) rather than just fitting them and hoping they will be accepted. Seatbelts were usually one of the items that people had to change when importing cars in the past. Perhaps, borrow the layout but obtain the rollers and belts locally?
    Yah, I see the point. Coming to that, would ADRs accept a set from a used car? A Toyota Yaris or some such? I would also venture towards streetrod/hotrod and kit car suppliers. You would be amazed at what you find in some of those catalogs.

    What kind of a mark on the belts do you need to look for denoting government acceptance for fitting? Since it isn't a 'factory' fitment, you'll need one of those "engineer" inspections I've seen here (we have nothing like that in SoCal)?
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    When we bought our Dolly back from the UK in late 98, we had to have some modifications done, including the inertia rear seat belts. Not having seen the German version, but some with a bar placed behind the rear seat (which I thought was ugly and intruded too much) we looked for other options. The engineer we had to certify the car was able to get a plate welded to the c Pillar much like the German versions, with the mechanism located on the floor. It took a skilled welder to do this as the steel is very thin. The seat belt itself was purchased at one of the auto stores here, I cant remember which one, so it has the Australian Standard mark on it.

    The only problem then was mounting for child seat anchorage points, which were also required. Those that had the bar at the top and behind the back seat used this for some mounting points. We overcame this with a bar across the boot under the rear lip, strengthening the opening, and it complied as the seats could be anchored with an extension strap. Never been used though.

    I think it may depend on the state (we are in SA) and also the individual engineer as to what you need to do.
    some photos - (I am sure I have posted these before, perhaps before the site crashed with my previous id now lost in the mists of time)

    2cv retractable rear seatbelts-sb001.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-sb002.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-sb004.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-sb003.jpg

    The child anchorage points were mounted on the bar below the bottom of the boot under the lip - the black bar you can see in this photo.

    2cv retractable rear seatbelts-p4140139.jpg

    In terms of a reversing light, a Swiss friend of mine was able to find a switch point on the gearbox for reverse. He inserted a switch, used the wiring that was in the car for the rear fog light (it was from the UK) and replaced the fog lamp with a white reversing one of the same size (separate rectangular mounted light). Works well. We dont need the fog light here in Adelaide!

    Cant recall having anything done to the wipers though. Out is an 86 year model, a lot may depend on the year.
    No side intrusion bars required at that time either. May be different now though.

    Hope this helps
    Peter
    1950 11BL
    1970 AZUA "La Poste" van
    1986 2CV Dolly (red and white)
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Have you guys ever dismantled a 2cv Those seatbelt mountings aren't going to work. I'd prefer a straight lap belt. There is nothing in that 'C' pillar, if you could get some 2mm plate metal machine cut and plate a substantial amount of the pillar it might work. I reckon what happen with them is the pillar will collapse, at least with a lap only belt, it should stay in the structure.

    My version of a child seat anchor would be a flat metal bar across the boot, that's also attaches to that frail little chassis horns. That way it can't just pull through.

    seeya,
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Have you guys ever dismantled a 2cv Those seatbelt mountings aren't going to work. I'd prefer a straight lap belt. There is nothing in that 'C' pillar, if you could get some 2mm plate metal machine cut and plate a substantial amount of the pillar it might work. I reckon what happen with them is the pillar will collapse, at least with a lap only belt, it should stay in the structure.

    My version of a child seat anchor would be a flat metal bar across the boot, that's also attaches to that frail little chassis horns. That way it can't just pull through.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Prefer as much as you like Shane, but it wont get the car registered. It is not about what will work, just what is needed to pass an inspection. Lap belts are no good with cars of 80's vintage due to the ADRs (and the need to meet the equivalent ones as applicable when the car was manufactured)

    Besides, if the force is such that the belts pull out the car itself will not have much structure left anyway. If you need it for safety in a crash, DON"T GET A 2CV. They are for fun and are not built like tanks to survive a crash (think 80's Volvo's) By their very nature you tend to avoid crashes due to good roadholding, lower speeds and the fact they are noticed by just about every other driver on the road - we are always being waved at in the little Dolly. Hence you don't get the "but I never saw him officer" which as a motor bike rider of fourty years I gave lost count of the times I have heard that (to the cost of too many friends I might add).

    As for child seat anchorages, well I wouldn't carry a child in a 2CV period. Never have, never will. It is just you need them to register the car. I would prefer to be without them, but as they are required to register here, then having them out the way I find is best.

    Also I think angle or a RHS tube would be better than a flat bar, which would be susceptible to bending for the same size wall thickness as an angle etc.
    Peter
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    JBN
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    These photos are of the 1989 2CV I imported from the UK, showing the uprights, the bar with the child restraint anchor points and the fixture to the roof sills. The photos are at an awkward angle as they are taken through the boot. Concentrate on the angle of the rear window to get the right perspective. That car had retractable belts, not easily seen in the photo.

    2cv retractable rear seatbelts-dolly-frame-2.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-dolly-frame-1.jpg

    The mounting to the roof sills uses a banana shaped 4mm or 5mm thick bit of steel welded to the uprights, with two holes drilled through it and the roof sill. On the outside of the car, there is a simialr banana shaped bit of steel, with countersunk holes drilled to accept countersunk bolts with the nuts on the inside of the car. The hood covers the outside banana plate.

    The base of the uprights is 40mm angle iron bolted through the boot floor with a 4-5mm plate underneath the floor for strength. The angle is also bolted horizontally through the inner guard with a corresponding plate in the outer wheel well.

    On the 1986 2CV, the child anchor points and transverse bar were horizontal rather that vertical, which allowed a rear parcel shelf made from masonite and covered with car carpet to be added. This went a long way to hiding the hideous contracption.

    As previously stated by others, the idea of safety is not the point. The whole exercise is to obtain registration. Not only is the system slightly different in different states, in NSW it differs on the engineer that you get to make the decision.

    Bullshit baffles brains.

    John

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    These photos are of the 1989 2CV I imported from the UK, showing the uprights, the bar with the child restraint anchor points and the fixture to the roof sills. The photos are at an awkward angle as they are taken through the boot. Concentrate on the angle of the rear window to get the right perspective. That car had retractable belts, not easily seen in the photo.

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    The mounting to the roof sills uses a banana shaped 4mm or 5mm thick bit of steel welded to the uprights, with two holes drilled through it and the roof sill. On the outside of the car, there is a simialr banana shaped bit of steel, with countersunk holes drilled to accept countersunk bolts with the nuts on the inside of the car. The hood covers the outside banana plate.

    The base of the uprights is 40mm angle iron bolted through the boot floor with a 4-5mm plate underneath the floor for strength. The angle is also bolted horizontally through the inner guard with a corresponding plate in the outer wheel well.

    On the 1986 2CV, the child anchor points and transverse bar were horizontal rather that vertical, which allowed a rear parcel shelf made from masonite and covered with car carpet to be added. This went a long way to hiding the hideous contracption.

    As previously stated by others, the idea of safety is not the point. The whole exercise is to obtain registration. Not only is the system slightly different in different states, in NSW it differs on the engineer that you get to make the decision.

    Bullshit baffles brains.

    John
    That one works for me .... The whole car should squish around that structure like an accordion It's the only substantial part of the whole car

    BTW: No baby seat ... You gotta have a baby seat mount, my 20month old would LOVE to go for a ride in the bright red noddy car. I've even fitted baby seats to the old early 60's ID19's. The toddler loves that car the best of the lot.... Mostly 'cos we have used it all summer without the roof on He squeals in excitement the whole time he's in that car

    seeya,
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    2CV wipers are two speed. On and off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter O View Post
    Prefer as much as you like Shane, but it wont get the car registered. It is not about what will work, just what is needed to pass an inspection. Lap belts are no good with cars of 80's vintage due to the ADRs (and the need to meet the equivalent ones as applicable when the car was manufactured)

    Besides, if the force is such that the belts pull out the car itself will not have much structure left anyway. If you need it for safety in a crash, DON"T GET A 2CV. They are for fun and are not built like tanks to survive a crash (think 80's Volvo's) By their very nature you tend to avoid crashes due to good roadholding, lower speeds and the fact they are noticed by just about every other driver on the road - we are always being waved at in the little Dolly. Hence you don't get the "but I never saw him officer" which as a motor bike rider of fourty years I gave lost count of the times I have heard that (to the cost of too many friends I might add).

    As for child seat anchorages, well I wouldn't carry a child in a 2CV period. Never have, never will. It is just you need them to register the car. I would prefer to be without them, but as they are required to register here, then having them out the way I find is best.

    Also I think angle or a RHS tube would be better than a flat bar, which would be susceptible to bending for the same size wall thickness as an angle etc.
    I think your trying to convince the wrong person i think a lap belt is more than sufficient ... hey it's still one step up from a motorbike!
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    Getting new seat belts in Australia is not problem and for there function they are well priced.
    Klippan is the manifacturer and they can be ordered from any of the usual parts shops.
    http://www.apvsafetyproducts.com/_li...at_Belt_Matrix
    APVAutomotive Safety Products - General Purpose - Seat Belts
    I fitted out the DS with a complete new set, many sizes and configurations to choose from, even colours.

    For the rear mounting points, any automotive engineer will be able to build a simple frame as JBN suggests, or copy any other design you fancy. Even build the frame yourself.
    I would estimate that a set of rear belts and a mounting frame build by an engineer will be less than $500, easy investment.

    Yes using 2nd hand belts is ok, I have them in my 2cv, recommended by a rego inspector after the originals became too frayed from dangling out the doors and getting stuck under wheels...

    Static belts in a 2cv are horrible, as mentioned above.

    Hope that helps a bit Chris!

    Harley

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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    2CV wipers are two speed. On and off.
    UK cars didn't have Lucas wipers? Three settings are possible there: On, Off, Maybe.

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    2cv retractable rear seatbelts-door-bars.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-door-bars1.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-doors-bars2.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-doors-bars3.jpg

    I believe there was someone in QLD that imported a few of these and made the modifications required to achieve ADR's. This was the door intrusion bar solution.


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    2cv retractable rear seatbelts-york-078.jpg
    Headrests are also required.


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    Quote Originally Posted by IE23 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I believe there was someone in QLD that imported a few of these and made the modifications required to achieve ADR's. This was the door intrusion bar solution.
    Wow .... that 2cv now has a strong bit ....... Pitty the doors will just fold around them like an accordion as there is no intrusion bars in them........ and those frail little pillars will just bend at the top and bottom of the plate. A lot nicer than trying to fit intrusion bars though!

    Imagine what you''d have to do if you imported a 1990 model 2cv
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    Local folk lore has it that the "Queensland" 2CVs were fitted with internal anti intrusion bars behind the door cards as well. IIRC there was also a requirement for a demisting fan too. Easily cobbled up ( boat shops sell in line 12 volt fans for engine space ventilation ) and hopefully replacing the dreadful cardboard and foil ducts.

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    Thought I'd chuck in my 2 bob's worth here.

    Gaston, the ex "Delifrance" car so kindly given to me last year, appears to have been prepared for Australian registration with some of the items mentioned above.

    At the rear is a large bar bolted between the two inner wheel arches. This has mounts on it for kiddie seats, and a label from the Queensland gov't (see photos)

    The back seat belts are non retracting jobs, with Australian compliance numbers on the labels. Fronts are retractables, also with Aus compliance numbers.

    I know it's a rotten photo, but I'll take better ones once I get to the doors. The doors appear to have anti-intrusion bars welded in behind the door cards. Fairly beefy, but no stronger than the surrounding frame, obviously. I can't help feeling those welded wings shown in a previous post would be responsible for more than a few sore kneecaps!

    Curiously, I have no information or records on whether this car was ever registered in Australia other than the remains of an illegible NSW windscreen sticker found on the floor. It still wore its 1982 UK plates when I got it.

    Rust repair is slowly underway, albeit still in the gathering data and costing of repair panels phase. I have a replacement chassis, second hand but not rusty, and this will be getting the full reinforcement and rustproofing treatment as I progress in the build.

    While the car will most likely not wear the Delifrance livery again, it should be a sound and good looking little unit once I get it all together, but this is unlikely until next year at least at the current rate of progress!

    Cheers, Pottsy

    2cv retractable rear seatbelts-child-restraint-bar-1.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-child-restraint-bar-2.jpg2cv retractable rear seatbelts-door-anti-intrusion.jpg
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's) Grandma's Taxi
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick") Weekend Warrior
    2015 C4 Grand Picasso ("Pablo") Workhorse & Grandpa's Taxi
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned Traveller
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Bonsai CX
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    317

    Default

    The other option is to take a lead from our English compadre's, remove the rear seat and belts for the road worthy, replace the following day...

    Harley

    Sent via the future...

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