Is CitroŽn dead?
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Thread: Is CitroŽn dead?

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Default Is CitroŽn dead?

    see the thread "Back in the Race" in Froggy Chat.
    As he rationalises towards twenty plus models they are really one common line of product, differentiated by the marques just for image reasons in certain market segments.
    If it were me, bearing in mind that Peugeot and CitroŽn are difficult names to spell and pronounce in global markets, I would divide the car brands into PSA and DS.

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    Perhaps, simply PUG and Sitrun ???

    ...and then there would be engine, transmission and trim options to inflate the number further.

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    I think they should be named after iconic French products like de Gaulle and Airbus.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    WRB
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    C5 and C6 are the end of the era - they have ditched hydo-pneumatic....
    Last edited by WRB; 16th April 2014 at 12:12 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I think they should be named after iconic French products like de Gaulle and Airbus.
    ... or divide them into Gauloises and Gitanes brands for PUG and CIT in readiness for the smouldering insurance jobs.

    Maybe PUG and CIT would work up against DAF and ZIL?

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I think they should be named after iconic French products like de Gaulle and Airbus.
    The French Republic is a product of de Gaulle
    Airbus is an international venture, primarly Franco-German

    The plan is to produce a global culture, at least within the organisation.
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    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRB View Post
    C5 and C6 are the end of the era - they have ditched hydo-pneumatic....
    It's a bit more than that: in the new strategy, CitroŽn is to be positioned as purely a maker of cheap or practical econoboxes, with Peugeot selling more upmarket and DS the crŤme de la crŤme.

    OK, so it's a bit like that now, other than both Peugeot and CitroŽn are selling (not so) cheap econoboxes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    If it were me, bearing in mind that Peugeot and CitroŽn are difficult names to spell and pronounce in global markets, I would divide the car brands into PSA and DS.
    I wouldn't say they were difficult to pronounce. Just need to educate people. When Mitsubishi started selling here there biggest problem was teaching people how to pronounce it. The same probably goes Hyundai and I get sick of telling people there is no A in Mercedes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    I get sick of telling people there is no A in Mercedes.
    There is no T in merc either, but plenty of germans put one in.

    jo

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    I'd put a coffee machine in instead .... more popular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garyk View Post
    I'd put a coffee machine in instead .... more popular.
    Ah, you have clearly not tasted german coffee.

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    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    True.

    I've *tasted* German cars. I liked some, but not many.

    Once sold a 2002 to get back to a Renault 16TS.

    Thus, overall .......

    But, if no hydraulique ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by garyk View Post
    True.

    I've *tasted* German cars. I liked some, but not many.

    Once sold a 2002 to get back to a Renault 16TS.

    Thus, overall .......

    But, if no hydraulique ....


    I driven and worked on many 2002's and just dont get them after living with a 16TS

    You do realise BMW is only for people who can't spell or pronounce Citroen, Peugeot or Renault.
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    The only unique selling point for Citroen to differentiate it from the vast number of other cars is hydraulic suspension. Drop that unique point & there is no reason to buy a Citroen over a Honda Merc or anything else. As they have dropped that, Citroen is no more, we may see Peugoets pretending to be Citroens, more likely they will be gone in a few years. What proportion of our members will continue to buy Citroens if they have no hydraulics?

    agd110

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    Peugeot / Citroen / Pallas (premium brand)

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    They stopped making Citroens the day the last Citroen CX and 2cv rolled out of a factory, so the point is hardly valid either way
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I think they should be named after iconic French products like de Gaulle and Airbus.
    what about French Fries and French Letters.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    You can't drop the Ž so easily in CitroŽn in French speaking countries, as it too close to becoming a lemon.
    CitroŽn is not just hydropneumatics, the 2cv still has the numbers in the car clubs in Europe.

    You are still thinking French - the CEO is trying to get the employees to think global.

    I still say buy the cars, not the whiff of garlic sprayed on by market spin doctors when it suits them.
    Last edited by gerry freed; 16th April 2014 at 07:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    ...
    You do realise BMW is only for people who can't spell or pronounce Citroen, Peugeot or Renault.
    ... or are closet Borgward fanciers.

    Depends who you talk to, but BMW benefited from the demise of Borgward around 1962. Borgward fans claimed BMW stood for Borgward macht weiter (Borgward continues on)!
    Last edited by David S; 17th April 2014 at 12:14 AM.

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    There wasn't much wrong with the Isabella, David. I saw them racing at Crystal Palace near my Gran's place in Forest Hill SW1 in the late fifties. Similar to Volkswagens and Renaults in the way the rear swing axles assumed all sorts of weird angles, but they went hard enough!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Yes, had Borgward not come to grief, the world's prestige carparks could well have been filled with black cars with badges resembling a rhombus rather than a propeller! I do appreciate Borgward products and one has to admire the work of Carl Borgward to build such a company and make high quality products.

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    Last edited by David S; 17th April 2014 at 12:14 AM.

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    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Don't agree that its "just hydraulics." Some months back I test drove some Peugeots: a few fast left/right wheel turns and the car became unstable. Citroens, even the "humble" GS had precise steering, good roadholding when on bad or different surfaces, good brakes, comfortable seating, great forward visibility, etc. I am yet to be particularly comfortable in almost any Merc, the auto's change at bad points for city driving, power comes on/off too brutally, many of the older BMWs (and Alfas) lacked precise steering....my Xantia still is more comfortable, more precise, and inspires confidence. The smaller Mercs I drove last year had absolutely dreadful suspension for everyday use. Dental work required after city jaunts. Most of the older (non-Citroen) European cars were crap tourers at speed (despite the low level vroom). Would you prefer to do 1,000km of bad highway in a 2002 or a GS? Then, the standard headlights on the BMW were pitiful .. you had to fit driving lights just to get to the levels that Citroen had as standard. And so it goes.

    Citroen may be legendary for "suspension" but even the humble ones had far better road manners than more expensive and revered European cars. I enjoy brute force sports cars too, but for everyday driving, the Citroen is still a leader in many facets...long-legged touring in particular, and primary driving assets: braking, handling, steering/geometry, seat comfort, etc, and the GS was one of the first "small" cars to do things only expensive big cars did at the time.

    I test drove the Mini (loved it, fun!) but the torque steer, compared to the C4 2l diesel was really scary. Fun, but scary.
    I used to always have an R4 in my stable. Excellent steering, independent suspension, it was comfortable, and you "learned" how to drive properly when you only had those little brakes and engine. I'd still own an R4 over a 2002 or a 16TS over a 2002....

    Unless someone gave the the $$$ to buy a mid $100K Benz, I'd stick with the Xantia, and even then, it would be a wrench.

    My *concern* is that those Citroen attributes were relatively unique for many decades, and now that other manufacturers are making fine (and cheap) cars, Citroen need to take the hurdle leaps they did in the days of the pioneering models to get the proper attention. If they just compete, then I don't like their chances. This needs a radical rethink. Still dunno which "new" Citroen I'd own, even if I had a dollar ....

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Apologies in advance for 3000 word essay below.
    I think the problem of todays 'ordinary' cars is that it is very difficult and/or expensive for any manufacturer to stray from the modern vehicle development path. Thus they tend towards similarity of product. 'Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose'.

    When the DS was built they set the bar very high and co-incidentally struck a chord with the motoring public. In terms of technological breakthroughs and design they went for broke. (Almost achieved it, only the intervention of Michelin saved them.) I think the chance of such a sea change occurring again is less and less likely.

    Today the present generation of designers must find it difficult or impossible to avoid being 'design shoppers'. It is far too easy to surf the net or browse third party parts suppliers' catalogues for fully resolved, warrantied 'add-ons'. This value adding is irresistible to company marketing executives and project managers since they can highlight additional vehicle features which do not involve months or even years of risky internal development and testing since that has already been done for them outside the organisation. That development is amortised over many manufacturers thus reducing risk and costs.

    As a designer I can quantify the price you pay for the design shopper approach. The price to pay is NOT in dollars but functionality.
    I was responsible a couple of years ago for co-ordinating two companies in the development of a production system. No 1 company was supplying a machining cabinet and a robot to insert a machining fixture into the cabinet. Due to site configurations, robot size, lift capacity and reach we had determined that the fixture must only weigh 8 kilogrammes. No 2 company finally had something to show me but their fixture weighed 23 Kg. in spite of the hard stipulation of 8Kg.
    I realised that this over-weight was because they had devised the fixture chassis at 7Kg but in order to hold the parts to be machined they had added 3 off-the-shelf hydraulic chucks, each weighing 5 Kg. Bolts, plumbing and other hardware added up to the 23 Kg. Over a weekend a colleague and I re-designed this fixture by visiting first principles, took the chassis and machined its core so that the hydraulics were now integral. In other words we removed material to achieve functionality and reduced the fully functioning fixture to 7.5Kg total.

    I believe Citroen in the DS days employed the same philosophy. This allowed them to achieve the many elegant engineering solutions manifest in that car. Because they were intimately familiar with their parts design down to individual component level they could transfer any lessons learned across the board. As an example, a thread elsewhere on this forum paid homage to the self-levelling headlight dampers which were a direct descendent of height corrector technology.

    There are heaps of other example but I hope I've made my point. We won't be seeing too many innovative breakthroughs in vehicles in the near future and I suspect hydraulic suspension is tragically going to become a Dodo.

    SF

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Apologies in advance for 3000 word essay below.
    I think the problem of todays 'ordinary' cars is that it is very difficult and/or expensive for any manufacturer to stray from the modern vehicle development path. Thus they tend towards similarity of product. 'Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose'.

    When the DS was built they set the bar very high and co-incidentally struck a chord with the motoring public. In terms of technological breakthroughs and design they went for broke. (Almost achieved it, only the intervention of Michelin saved them.) I think the chance of such a sea change occurring again is less and less likely.


    SF
    Michelin intervened in the early 1930s after the death of Andre and was responsible for the further development of the TA the introduction of the 2CV and the DS they were still in charge when Citroen collaborated with Maserati and only pulled out when Peugeot took over.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Michelin intervened in the early 1930s after the death of Andre and was responsible for the further development of the TA the introduction of the 2CV and the DS they were still in charge when Citroen collaborated with Maserati and only pulled out when Peugeot took over.
    Yes, I knew that. An unfortunate combination of sentences on my part, I added the DS sentence after and should have placed it elsewhere not to confuse with the Michelin takeover milestone.

    Still doesn't affect what I was trying to say though, that true innovation costs, and costs big and the only way manufacturers can minimise this is by spreading the amortisation by buying ready-made add-ons. Develop by the Lego plug and play approach. It results in a drift towards a 'one size fits all car' and is probably an irresistible process.

    SF

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