DS Cit-In Blues
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Thread: DS Cit-In Blues

  1. #1
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    Icon9 DS Cit-In Blues

    So with Cit-In rapidly approaching, I thought that I should make some engine adjustments to my DS21 which had been running a bit hot. So step one, advance the timing to see if there was any difference. A small turn of the distributor had the engine idle increased and a test run showed that the engine was running appreciably cooler. Terrific.

    Now to do the tune up properly. Marked TDC on the camshaft belt drive pulley and check timing with the strobe light. All good. Now what about the carburetter. This is a pre 7/1972 car, so no pollution settings involved, should be simple. Followed the advice in 814 re idle setting. Disaster, now runs like a hairy goat. Impossible to get even running, much hunting in the running of the engine. Much fiddling with carby settings and swapping the coil provided only marginal improvements. I noticed that as the engine died, the strobe light was very weak or non existent. Tried hot wiring the ignition, but no improvement.

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    So, can anyone advise on this problem, or must I travel with my tail between my legs and take a C4 or even a 23 Safari. It's great to have options, but I was keen to take the D21, as it has only been on the road for about 18 months after extensive refurbishment after a slumber of almost 20 years.

    Cheers
    Richard

  2. #2
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Points or 123?

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    Hello Addo,

    It's points, but why would there be should there be such a difference to the performance in such a short time if there were no changes to the distributor internals.

    Cheers
    Richard

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    If it were something like a 123 that suddenly expired, that would explain the weak/nil spark you were seeing. With points, assuming the gap was fine or you checked dwell then I'd try a new condenser by substitution. The poor carb situation isn't going to crimp your sparking.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    How old is the coil? Have you checked the strength of spark at the coil? When was the condenser last replaced?
    Cheers Gerry

  6. #6
    UFO
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    Is there a hairline crack in the distributor cap that opens a little as the engine heats?
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  7. #7
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    OK, so I have checked my stock of used distributors, of which there are seven. Three come from ID 19's, so cannot be used (aneroid capsules). Three are Ducellier, two of which were made redundant when I switched to 123 systems, but I don't know the origin of the third. The seventh was an SEV Marchall, probably off a D Super. I have bridged the condenser of this distributor across the condenser of the SEV Marchal in the car. (note dual spelling of the name of the condenser, can't get less than 50% in this test!). I would like to test the system now, but I fear my neighbour may object after suffering an afternoon of constant engine starting, so will do so tomorrow morning and report back then.

    Gerry, I did not test the performance of the replacement coil, I assumed that it was working when removed from the donor car and had not been used for many years. In any case there was really a great difference in performance.

    Hello UFO, could be, but I doubt that there would be such a dramatic difference in performance in the space a day. We shall see.

    Thanks all for your suggestions, rally appreciated, but try not to lose too much sleep anticipating tomorrow's outcome.

    Cheers
    Richard

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    This morning when checking the car, I noticed that there was a heavy sooty deposit in the exhaust pipes and soot on the ground behind the car. Removed the plugs, heavily fouled. Cleaned with a small brush and petrol. Reset the carby to what was supposed to be the original starting point. Car started first stroke and ran evenly. Went for a short drive to warm up the engine. Engine began running roughly after a short while. Back home removed plugs, heavily fouled, in such a short time.

    Tried a replacement distributor and slight variations on the idle mixture screw, without any real success. Have now run out of time, so I guess its off to Cit-In in the C4. Citroen specifically forbid owners to keep their grubby mits off their precious diesel in these cars. Probably not a bad idea in my case!

    It is all a pity really as I had been looking forward to presenting my refurbished DS21 Pallas at Cit-In. It will have to wait until next year - where is Cit-In 2015?

    Cheers
    Richard

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    I should also have mentioned that the explanation of the operation of the Weber carburettor provided by Steve (Citroenfan) at post #17 of the 'DS21 Running On' thread is the most coherent and clear piece that I have read, a real gem.

    Cheers
    Richard

  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    whip the carby off .... black plugs == overfueling, check the accelerator pump isn't leaking and the needle/seat is ok (not to mention the float level).

    seeya
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  11. #11
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    Cit-In was a great event, pity I had to travel in the C4. Since returning home, I have redoubled my efforts to motivate the DS21.

    Tried starting the car when I got back. Not a sausage. Cleaned plugs, put new points and a replacement (used) condenser in the distributor. Replaced the carby with one known to have come from a working engine. The carby was cleaned, all galleys flushed, float level set with a 3/16" drill and base checked for flatness.

    Car started easily on reassembly ran fast and evenly, but would start to die if revs dropped below about 1800. Tried minor adjustments on the mixture screw, but to no avail. Checked timing with a strobe, seemed about right at 11 degrees on the camshaft pulley. After a period of running, engine started to miss again. Pulled plugs, all fouled!

    So most of the elements required to make the engine run have been cleaned, adjusted or replaced.

    So where to now? There is a carby specialist in Murumbateman, just out of Canberra, Previously worked on the carby of my Safari. I think my next move will be to see if he is still in business and can help. Oh the frustration!

    Cheers
    Richard

  12. #12
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    I second UFO's distributor cap suggestion. You have already reported seeing the weak strobe light as the engine spluttered and died - therefore surely spark issues are where you need to concentrate your efforts! I had a dizzie cap fail on a Pug 605 (same as XM), and visual inspection never revealed a problem. The clue was the spark strength - strong if observed at the coil, weak after passing through distributor.

    The car would start and run normally, but after a few minutes would run rough, then die. I used an old-school timing light, which directly uses the high-voltage current to light a globe. You could certainly see the difference between normal spark when the car was started and weak spark after a few minutes - and there was a direct correlation with how the car ran. So the insulating properties of the hard plastic cap (bakelite?) broke down as temperature increased.

    Cheers

    Alec

    PS - don't forget rotor button when replacing dizzy cap!

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Hi Richard,

    I'd send the carby to these guys : Untitled Document

    I've sent two of mine there and they have done a great job with a turnaround of a few days.

    Also - IMHO ditch the old points system and distributor and get yourself a 123 and new coil if you can. Saves a heap of messing around.

    The 123 and new coil solved my rich running in my 71 as well as noticeably more power. Spark was too weak, and the advance mechanism in the original distributor was well past it.

    If the above does not help, then check the manifold for air leaks - the non idle condition sounds like a leaking carby base.

    Lastly - I have had one carby go "porous" and leak air from somewhere. A replacement carby was the only solution.

    Cheers,

    Mark...

    Cheers,

    Mark...
    Last edited by ds21bvh; 27th April 2014 at 03:01 PM.

  14. #14
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    Sooty plugs speaks excess fuel, especially as it is worse when hot, not air leaks.
    Heed the message your plugs are telling you.

    Richard

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    Ram
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    Sounds like you may need to revisit the engine timing. All this carby and ignition chats not working. To most that's as far as one can go. With a proprietary manual. One needs to look at the relationship of the crankshaft at TDC, the distributor, and the valve positions. Put the crankshaft at TDC no1 cyl, this should
    Put the no 1 cyl at TDC.. Remove the rocker cover check that both valves are closed. If there not. Pull the engine and fit a new timing chain and sprocket kit. Toyota Hi Ace timing chains only last about 200000km, so if your DS has an unknown history have a good think abut this, good luck , Ram

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    I am in the ignition camp. Start up and run at night in a very dark environment and observe the the distributor cap. You may see arcing down possible cracks.
    1950 Light 15 - Blanche 'Claude'
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