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    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    Default Electric Water Pumps

    I need to replace the water pump on my CX2400 c-matic. It says in the owners manual if using a/c on a hot day to run the engine for a while before switching off. Obviously at speed the mechanical pumps work best yet around town etc electric could be a benefit? plus it could be set it to run for a period when the engine is switched off to provide that extra cooling. Anyone attempted this? I couldn't find anything on the forum yet sort of remember a Turbo CX having one fitted?

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    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

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    I suspect you are making work for yourself. When the thermostat closes, the pump will stall and cavitate, so you would want to account for that and possibly stop the pump when the temperature near the thermostat reaches something above its opening temperature. Your money and effort might be better spent on improving the alternator, wiring, fans and their control. The electrics are not the world's best and especially so after 35 years. The c-matic has a special issue with the gearbox electrovalve in that you can be sitting in traffic at idle for an extended period and then find you can't shift gear because the voltage has dropped off.

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    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    I suspect you are making work for yourself. When the thermostat closes, the pump will stall and cavitate, so you would want to account for that and possibly stop the pump when the temperature near the thermostat reaches something above its opening temperature. Your money and effort might be better spent on improving the alternator, wiring, fans and their control. The electrics are not the world's best and especially so after 35 years. The c-matic has a special issue with the gearbox electrovalve in that you can be sitting in traffic at idle for an extended period and then find you can't shift gear because the voltage has dropped off.
    Yes voltage drop is an issue with C-matics & on to that already. I'll have to research V8 Ford forums as I think the mechanical thermostats are removed and an electronic heat sensor activates the pump in its place. Will the bearings wear out in the old pump & require replacement anyway? The pulley from it runs other ancillaries. Electric kits are now cheaper than a new mechanical replacement.
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

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    Eliminating the mechanical pump,is going to create problems with the accessory belt ,if fitting the electric pump would you retain the operation of the mechanical or eliminate by say grinding the vanes off the pump ,in which case you would retain the pulley but still have to maintain the bearings and seal ,have you considered a turbo timer to provide the run on effect ,eliminating heat rise ,when you stop the car ,any possibility of increasing pulley size on pump to speed it up a little keeping in mind how fast it will be going at max road speed ,pugs

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Get a renault R19.
    They come standard with an electric pump that keeps on going after the car is shut down
    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    I need to replace the water pump on my CX2400 c-matic. It says in the owners manual if using a/c on a hot day to run the engine for a while before switching off. Obviously at speed the mechanical pumps work best yet around town etc electric could be a benefit? plus it could be set it to run for a period when the engine is switched off to provide that extra cooling. Anyone attempted this? I couldn't find anything on the forum yet sort of remember a Turbo CX having one fitted?

    Pretty standard procedure with ANY motor vehicle or machinery!

    If I can do it with my lawn mower Jinandfonic, you can do it with your CX. (I have some knee high grass (weeds with trunks) on a country property to get mow down on occasions and boy do I give the Briggs and Stratton 60 a hard time. In giving it a hard time, I treat it with respect, I give it a chance to tone down before switching off, more frequent oil and dust off if not filter changes.)

    Any bit of machinery that has been "pushed" hard needs time to stabilize before switch off.

    (By the by, not sure what good an electric fan running on does without circulating the coolant within the cooling system.)


    JAJEA

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAJEA View Post
    Pretty standard procedure with ANY motor vehicle or machinery!

    If I can do it with my lawn mower Jinandfonic, you can do it with your CX. (I have some knee high grass (weeds with trunks) on a country property to get mow down on occasions and boy do I give the Briggs and Stratton 60 a hard time. In giving it a hard time, I treat it with respect, I give it a chance to tone down before switching off, more frequent oil and dust off if not filter changes.)

    Any bit of machinery that has been "pushed" hard needs time to stabilize before switch off.

    (By the by, not sure what good an electric fan running on does without circulating the coolant within the cooling system.)


    JAJEA
    Drops the Temperature/pressure in the peripheral cooling system ( Not the block or head ) and prevents latent heat rise that would result in a boil over!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    They should thermosyphen to a certain extend if the radiator fan continues to run ( Like the old RWD "BRUM" look alike Citreon B3? my kids loved at a Cit-in many years back). BTW: I'm pretty sure with an electric pump you remove them thermostat, the pumps electronics control the flow speed/temperature of the coolant.

    I see no reason to add the complexity of an electric water pump, when a belt driven one is so reliable and cheap and well tested.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugwash View Post
    Eliminating the mechanical pump,is going to create problems with the accessory belt ,if fitting the electric pump would you retain the operation of the mechanical or eliminate by say grinding the vanes off the pump ,in which case you would retain the pulley but still have to maintain the bearings and seal ,have you considered a turbo timer to provide the run on effect ,eliminating heat rise ,when you stop the car ,any possibility of increasing pulley size on pump to speed it up a little keeping in mind how fast it will be going at max road speed ,pugs
    I would have to by-pass the pump as it leaks. I would need to keep the pump working just as a pulley. Does the coolant circulating protect the bearings? The pump is not noisy though. A digital controller is included to activate the pump at intervals & set post drive cool down. I will send a list of questions to Craig Davies.

    Notes & fitting instructions: http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Images/EWP115%20kit.pdf
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

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    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    Default Electric Water Pumps

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    They should thermosyphen to a certain extend if the radiator fan continues to run ( Like the old RWD "BRUM" look alike Citreon B3? my kids loved at a Cit-in many years back). BTW: I'm pretty sure with an electric pump you remove them thermostat, the pumps electronics control the flow speed/temperature of the coolant.

    I see no reason to add the complexity of an electric water pump, when a belt driven one is so reliable and cheap and well tested.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    A new pump I've been quoted $260.00 plus fitting. The cheaper ones on ebay don't have the pulley tensioner or a/c provision. I have read about cooling issues with CX's & thought it would be good upgrade. (Doesn't look complex) If no one has done such a modification I'll leave it alone.
    Last edited by Jinandfonic; 24th April 2014 at 10:24 PM.
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    The pumps would be half that:

    $180.00(inc postage)
    MAPCO Water Pump CITROňN CX II 25 D Turbo | eBay

    $142.00 (inc postage)
    Water Pump for CITROňN CX I 2400 GTi 128BHP Hatchback 77- 82 | eBay

    I'm pleased you noticed the cheap ones were the wrong pulley configuration. If you take note, every single one of those auctions nearly has really shitty photos that deliberately hide the pulley layout.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Agree with Shane. There is no need to fit one, the standard setup runs perfectly well. Get yourself an SKF pump, they have the main drive pulley at 85mm versus 100mm of the standard pump. So that runs the water pump slightly faster. Fit a trinary switch to the receiver dryer so the A/C gets the fans working hard when needed
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Drops the Temperature/pressure in the peripheral cooling system ( Not the block or head ) and prevents latent heat rise that would result in a boil over!
    Agreed Gerry but no substitute for good practice. And a good healthy system unless pushed hard can cope as others advised not to go down the path of an electric pump.

    John

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAJEA View Post
    Agreed Gerry but no substitute for good practice. And a good healthy system unless pushed hard can cope as others advised not to go down the path of an electric pump.

    John
    Unless pushed hard I've towed caravans/trailers in 40degree heat without any issues The radiator is enormous for the very modest power output. The pump will always flow enough, the radiator and how blocked it is will dictate the cooling ability of the car, not the water pump

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    What is most important in a CX is that you bleed the system thoroughly. If air is left in the cylinder head overheating will occur and this can lead to blown head gaskets and warped heads!
    Go on ask me how I know!!!!
    My car was in this condition when I first bought it! I drove it home and got 3/4 of the way when it produced a Geyser to rival anything found in Rotorua!.
    The car was flat bedded the rest of the way!!!!!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    What is most important in a CX is that you bleed the system thoroughly. If air is left in the cylinder head overheating will occur and this can lead to blown head gaskets and warped heads!
    Go on ask me how I know!!!!
    My car was in this condition when I first bought it! I drove it home and got 3/4 of the way when it produced a Geyser to rival anything found in Rotorua!.
    The car was flat bedded the rest of the way!!!!!

    Yeah and they are bitches to bleed properly.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Electric Water Pumps-image.jpg   Electric Water Pumps-image.jpg   Electric Water Pumps-image.jpg   Electric Water Pumps-image.jpg  


    Adrian

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    Bleeding a 2400 should be trivial. It has a degassing tank at the back near the firewall and a bleeder on top of the water pump housing. Where is the difficulty? You do have to be careful with pumps and housings as they are not all the same and you can fit a later pump to an older housing and find there is a small area where there is very little contact and it's likely to weep there.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    No Probs bleeding a CX! It is even easier if you jack the left side of the vehicle and open the bleed screw whilst forcing water into the reservoir ( with a hose) until coolant flows from the bleed screw. At this point close the bleed screw-----Job Done!
    The jacking raises the level of the bleed screw in relation to the head. Air then flows more easily to the bleed point!
    Cheers Gerry

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    My experiences are that it has never been so simple.

    There are three bleed points. Not one. 1. Top of water pump 2. Back of engine head. 3. Radiator.
    And to be "thorough" (as Gerry first warned) you must ensure all air is eliminated by opening all 3 points PLUS in my experience release the top radiator hose to release the air trapped there on that side of the radiator with the engine running and the system under pressure.
    This all should be done with sufficient water being continuosly fed into the filler tank.

    Again my experience is if you don't do this full procedure you run the risk of air being left behind causing an air lock resulting in overheating.


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    Different Model CX. Mine is a CX 2400 C-Matic and has only the water pump bleeder. Some others I have seen have the bleeder on th Head to inlet manifold take off point! But usually the air in the radiator is bled by squeezing the upper hose.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    Yes the 2400 with the degassing tank is easier to bleed than the 2200. Just like bleeding the brakes on CX just when you think it is right, more to do! Anyway back on topic, I have no issue with overheating just I just like the sound of better cooling (Brisbane based) and slightly more power. Trusting a 37 year old cars electrical system is the major reason why one wouldn't. Ease of fitting an electrical kit without making a new mechanical pump fit without leaking (they have an extra hole to cover) and lining up pullies etc sounds less painful though. Ultimately this engine is not designed for one, so I'll put the idea in with the electric superchargers (hair dryers, lol) and vortex/cyclone inserts!
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

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    I am bringing my CX2200 Pallas back on line after it has sat for 20 plus years. The water pump is lumpy when turning it by hand. Can the bearing be replaced? Such as by pressing out the shaft. If not where do I get an SKF pump you mention.
    Richard

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    Nothing to do with a CX specifically but I decided to fit a Davies-Craig EWP to the R5 Alpine motor in my 4CVG. I think them to be a decidedly "good thing". The merits of an EWP are several compared with an engine driven one.

    First, efficiency: a radiator is a heat exchanger &, for that exchange to take place optimally, the water has to flow through at a rate conducive to that. An engine driven pump flows water too slowly at low speeds & too quickly at high speeds. An EWP flows at more like an optimal rate whatever the engine speed.

    Second, it assists warm-up by intermittent "pulse" flowing until the engine is at a certain temperature.

    Third, as noted, it continues to run for a little while after switch off, thus ameliorating hot-spot-generated heat gradient stresses on engine components.

    Fourth, one does gain a few kw by eliminating the engine driven pump. (In my case, the existing water pump assembly was entirely removed but, as you say, one could devane the water pump to retain a fully for your belt system, thus gaining at least some of the advantage of removing it entirely.)

    cheers! Peter

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I had "electric" thoughts today when a brand new CX water pump locked solid after 100 km. It stopped very quickly with rubber smoke appearing when in an instant there was loud squealing and the alternator light came on. It feels as if the impeller shaft has shifted sideways. Car is parked for early morning rescue and dismantling. Second drive since pump replacement! I'd thrown the box away so can't comment on brand of pump beyond not having seen it before.

    I'll stick to the mechanical one for the CX though, given the configuration of the vee-belts. I agree totally with 4cvg though for the right and practical situation, which his car certainly is.
    JohnW

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