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  1. #1
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Icon7 Dee Body Construction

    Is this really how the body was built up?

    The DS Appreciation Thread

    If so, it's a revelation to me. Greatly improves clarity of thought about sectional repairs.

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    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    I think it was more than a father and son without any tools operation Addo!

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    It does appear that Dad is pointing uselessly at something any trained monkey could point at. Must be some obscure union rule.

    Yah- that's how the chassis is made. All the strength is in the floorpan and the box sections. The upper portion- the one wot Junior is guiding into place- merely serves as a way to hang the panels. However, I'm not sure if it was assembled as an upper half/lower half construction, or if it was progressively built up.
    Last edited by Hotrodelectric; 6th April 2014 at 05:54 AM.
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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Pages 44/45 of the "Birth of a DS" seems to show upper and lower sections being mated.

    Dee Body Construction-citroen-build-p44.jpgDee Body Construction-citroen-build-p45.jpg
    Last edited by michaelr; 6th April 2014 at 12:17 PM.
    Michael
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    Fellow Frogger! IE23's Avatar
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    If the construction method of a DS was so revolutionary and so supposedly simple, why did Citroen abandon this method and do something completely different with the CX? Maybe is wasn't good after all? The CX welded panels, folds and complexity by comparison seems a mystery. Surely if you have a good construction method you build and modify that method as you go to improve upon it not abandon it completely. The cost to do this must have been huge.


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    What interests me is you can see both Deuche and Traction (IMO) elements in the separate chassis.

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    There could be several reasons to abandon the DS construction method.

    I believe that the US Budd company demanded pretty heavy royalty payments for the pressed steel "unibody" as used in the Traction. It might have been that the construction method of the D was initially to avoid those but needs changed?

    Both Rover and Citroen believed that hanging unstressed body panels on a skeletal frame would allow them to easily update a model at very low cost but in practise both found that there was little or no advantage in this and both Rover 2000 and the DS changed only a little it their production runs.

    I would suspect too that it became increasingly hard to design for crash testing when the unstressed body panels tended to simply detach in an accident, often contributing little to the performance.
    Michael
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    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    Hey Michael is the Birth of a DS in pdf form? A link? Etc wouldn't mind a gander.
    any word on 3312-T?!
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 6th April 2014 at 05:14 PM.

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    I have read that the construction Citroen used in the DS failed to have the structural integrity to pass the later safety impact standards in Europe. This method does make it great for people like myself who are restoring a DS.
    In all honesty though I`d rather have a decent frontal or side impact in my Alfa Giulia Ti or Lancia Fulvia 2C than our DS as both have a fully welded mono body and were crash tested for progressive crumpling. I guess it reflects the time the DS was designed in the early to mid 50`s when most designers and engineers didn`t have to consider crash worthiness.

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IE23 View Post
    If the construction method of a DS was so revolutionary and so supposedly simple, why did Citroen abandon this method and do something completely different with the CX? Maybe is wasn't good after all? The CX welded panels, folds and complexity by comparison seems a mystery. Surely if you have a good construction method you build and modify that method as you go to improve upon it not abandon it completely. The cost to do this must have been huge.
    You have to consider that safety standards even today are a moving target and very difficult to meet. The D was a structurally sound car for the time it was designed in, but by the time production ended requirements had moved on to other areas of concern that the D could not meet. Rigid passenger cells and chassis had given way to a deformable style, meaning more energy absorption and dissipation. That led to a lower rate of bodily injury. Simply put, the CX is superior to the D in this regard.

    Of course, if you wind up in a new Chery or Brilliance, all this goes out the window and your life insurance had better be up-to-date.

    Quote Originally Posted by alfavirusnz View Post
    I have read that the construction Citroen used in the DS failed to have the structural integrity to pass the later safety impact standards in Europe. This method does make it great for people like myself who are restoring a DS.
    In all honesty though I`d rather have a decent frontal or side impact in my Alfa Giulia Ti or Lancia Fulvia 2C than our DS as both have a fully welded mono body and were crash tested for progressive crumpling. I guess it reflects the time the DS was designed in the early to mid 50`s when most designers and engineers didn`t have to consider crash worthiness.
    Not so. Engineering did consider crash worthiness. After all, what's the point in deliberately trying to kill your customer base? Most all the French manufacturers, along with Volvo and Saab were considered very advanced when it came to passenger safety. There's film of Citroen TAs being crashed, the usual result being the car could move off under it's own power, even though the bodies were deformed. That famous pic of the D that Mitt Romney crashed? Full head on shot at speed. The reason his female passenger died was she wasn't belted in. The male passenger survived, obviously as well as Mitt.

    The whole point being crash worthiness may have been going in a wrong direction with rigid structures (Citroen is NOT the only guilty one here), but bet your bippie it was considered very important.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    Hey Michael is the Birth of a DS in pdf form? A link? Etc wouldn't mind a gander.
    I have put a copy of the Birth of a DS in my Dropbox and will leave it there for a month or so for anyone interested.

    It is a little tricky to view but fiddle about with it and you will get a decent readable copy. When you open a page it is small but then right click and chose "view original". You can view it on line or download page by page, about 55 mb.

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4cq8g6c7lymbukv/gR18kSF715



    Re DS crash safety, it does indeed have progressive crumple zones, especially obvious at the front end with tapering longerons built of thinner materials towards the nose. The passenger compartment is really quite rigid and the fuel tank is under the back seat away from the rear impact absorbing areas. For it's time it was very advanced.

    Here is a pic of Charles De Gaulle moonlighting as a crash test dummy. Bravo mon General!


    Dee Body Construction-ds-crash-test_552x600.jpgDee Body Construction-charles-de-gaulle-225.jpg




    Last edited by michaelr; 7th April 2014 at 12:23 AM.
    Michael
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    Here's an easy link for the brochure, available all the time.
    The link misses out on the front and rear covers and inner cover images and text.



    Salva - les DS 21 et 23 injection électronique: Naissance d'une DS

    I own an original brochure, slavered over for a few years now.
    Tough to find and probably the most comprehensive brochure the factory produced
    64 pages in all.
    Last edited by richo; 7th April 2014 at 10:59 AM.

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Michael, Richo: thanks, guys. Always something to learn about these cars.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    Here's an easy link for the brochure, available all the time.
    The link misses out on the front and rear covers and inner cover images and text.



    Salva - les DS 21 et 23 injection électronique: Naissance d'une DS

    I own an original brochure, slavered over for a few years now.
    Tough to find and probably the most comprehensive brochure the factory produced
    64 pages in all.
    Thanks Richo, I had not seen that one... a different colour to the copy I have.

    Sad that web site puts their water mark across every page, it is not as if the owned copyright!
    Michael
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    Default Crash safety

    Quote Originally Posted by alfavirusnz View Post
    I have read that the construction Citroen used in the DS failed to have the structural integrity to pass the later safety impact standards in Europe. This method does make it great for people like myself who are restoring a DS.
    In all honesty though I`d rather have a decent frontal or side impact in my Alfa Giulia Ti or Lancia Fulvia 2C than our DS as both have a fully welded mono body and were crash tested for progressive crumpling. I guess it reflects the time the DS was designed in the early to mid 50`s when most designers and engineers didn`t have to consider crash worthiness.
    I beg to differ;not only did the ds19 have progressive crumple designed into the chassis,it also had the spare wheel in the nose and engine mountings designed to shear off sending motor under the car in a head-on not into the passenger compartment;not to mention the one spoke steering wheel designed to send the driver lying across passenger seat in a head-on;remember this was before seat belts became mandatory,Andy.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger
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    When released in 1955, the crash-worthiness would have been well ahead of many others, but by 1975, 1965 even, it was woeful in comparison to the vast majority of its competitors. It was sold in market segment against MB W108/109/116, Jaguar XJ, BMW, Volvo, SAAB ... There is very little strength in the roof structure and not a lot above the sills from the firewall back. I'm not sure how the engine was supposed to go under the car in a crash given how close it is to the firewall and the rather large crossmember directly under the sump. I don't see anywhere for it to go, unlike, say a Volvo 140. The first D incarnation had the front edge of the floor protruding forward, which must have been good at catching the engine.

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    In the late sixties Citroen were still happy to sell the DS as a safe vehicle, as shown in the attached "Safety in Numbers" advertisement. However whilst it mentions crumple zones and rigid passenger compartment more emphasis is placed on active rather than passive safety.

    Dee Body Construction-cit-ad-safety-numbers.jpg
    Michael
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