Need advice - How to adjust ignition timing on ID19
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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Default Need advice - How to adjust ignition timing on ID19

    I bought timing light at Sunday market thinking I can see if timing of my car was correct or not.
    I read manual today and I discovered that I don`t need such a advanced device for my car.
    Manual says Lamp with bracket. I understand any 12V lamp will do it? And also 6 mm diameter rod- Can I use regular philips scre driver close to that diameter? Manual says "turn on the ignition" - Is that mean just to turn the key but not pressing start button?

    Once again manual is very unclear to me. SO I need YOUR HELP. Operation No. ID 211-0 I don`t see any Illustration for this adjustment.



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    Section 2: I am not sure what I am adjusting- turn the distributor counter-clock wise and lamp will lit at moment coronate separate. ????? Yes then? And which exact terminal of condenser connection terminal do I connect the lamp( + Red positive side?)

    Section 3: Place the advance lever on the facia panel 2 notches....................( What is this?)
    I do`nt understand nothing on section 3.

    I hope YOU CAN TRANSLATE THEM to the language I can understand. Thank you!

    Need advice - How to adjust ignition timing on ID19-img_0458.jpg
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    It sounds like something for the antiques my old man used to drive - they had a manual advance lever for the driver to adjust (you upped the advance with engine speed). Post war cars advance automatically, and you only need to set the idling position.

    I know little about your car, but with distributors you need the low voltage contact points to open for the No 1 cylinder at the correct advance before top dead centre of the crankshaft. A simple 12v test light can tell that moment if the ignition is on. Rotating the distributor on its clamp does the job.

    Much easier is to use a strobe light that clips over the high voltage spark plug lead and flashes at the moment when the plug fires. If you look at the crankshaft timing mark with the strobe there will appear to be a stationary mark showing the current advance degrees. Rotate the distributor as needed to adjust.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    If you are using the 6mm pin DO NOT FORGET TO REMOVE IT AS SOON AS YOU HAVE SET THE STATIC TIMING. If you start the car and the pin is still in the bell housing hole it will BEND. This entails engine removal to get it out again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by caparobertsan View Post
    I bought timing light at Sunday market thinking I can see if timing of my car was correct or not.
    I read manual today and I discovered that I don`t need such a advanced device for my car.
    Manual says Lamp with bracket. I understand any 12V lamp will do it? And also 6 mm diameter rod- Can I use regular philips scre driver close to that diameter? Manual says "turn on the ignition" - Is that mean just to turn the key but not pressing start button?

    Once again manual is very unclear to me. SO I need YOUR HELP. Operation No. ID 211-0 I don`t see any Illustration for this adjustment.



    Section 2: I am not sure what I am adjusting- turn the distributor counter-clock wise and lamp will lit at moment CONTACT POINTS separate. ????? Yes then? And which exact terminal of condenser connection terminal do I connect the lamp( + Red positive side?)

    Across low tension lead terminal to earth ( any where there is convenient bolt on the engine or frame) works! As soon as the contact points open the lamp illuminates as the low tension current seeks an alternate route to ground.

    Section 3: Place the advance lever on the facia panel 2 notches....................( What is this?)
    I do`nt understand nothing on section 3.

    I hope YOU CAN TRANSLATE THEM to the language I can understand. Thank you!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note the additions and corrections that I made to your post!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by gerrypro; 5th March 2014 at 03:44 PM.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Hello seasink, Thanks for reply! Yes car is from 1961.
    Oh yes I just remember that there is a ignition control knob inside car. Maybe that is what they talking about.

    Yes I know about timing mark but this car does not seems to have that. I watched youtube video about ignition timing adjustment using strobe and it looks much clearer than my original manual for this car.

    I will open the bonnet and have a look if there is a mark or not.
    Thanks
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    It sounds like something for the antiques my old man used to drive - they had a manual advance lever for the driver to adjust (you upped the advance with engine speed). Post war cars advance automatically, and you only need to set the idling position.

    I know little about your car, but with distributors you need the low voltage contact points to open for the No 1 cylinder at the correct advance before top dead centre of the crankshaft. A simple 12v test light can tell that moment if the ignition is on. Rotating the distributor on its clamp does the job.

    Much easier is to use a strobe light that clips over the high voltage spark plug lead and flashes at the moment when the plug fires. If you look at the crankshaft timing mark with the strobe there will appear to be a stationary mark showing the current advance degrees. Rotate the distributor as needed to adjust.
    No crankshaft timing marks on an ID 19 engine!!!!!!!!!!! Just the hole in the bell housing for the 6mm pin. Use the crank handle to turn the engine until the pin engages. Do Not Forget to Remove it!!!!!
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caparobertsan View Post
    Oh yes I just remember that there is a ignition control knob inside car. Maybe that is what they talking about.

    I will open the bonnet and have a look if there is a mark or not.
    Thanks
    As Gerry says, there is no timing mark on a pulley so no point looking.

    The only way is using the method in the book. The idea is that the pin locks the flywheel at the exact position that the spark is needed. By loosening the distributor and turning it you can identify the time that the spark is fired (when the points open) and then tighten the clamp so that the distributor is locked in that position. When you have finished run the car and listen carefully for any strange noises such as knocking. Then take it for a run and check again for knocking noises or "pinging" (a.k.a. pinking), especially going up hill, as if the ignition is too far advance it can do serious damage.

    The control on the dashboard is a manual advance/retard for the ignition timing. It allows the driver to adjust the advance whilst driving to compensate for different grades of petrol, etc. Set it in the mid point before adjusting the ignition. Now days fuel is pretty reliable so there should be no need to touch it once the system is running well. Just bear in mind that if a passenger turns it whilst asking "what is this?" they will undo your good work!

    Modern cars actually do adjust the advance constantly to attain optimum fuel efficiency.
    Michael
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    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

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    If the engine runs there is no need to worry about the pin or a light. Just time it by ear.

    First make sure the ignition contact points in the distributor are in good condition and the gap is correct (using either a feeler gauge or dwell meter). Then adjust the timing by trial and error. Advance the timing (turn dizzy anti-clockwise) a little, then go for a drive and listen for pinging (repetitive high pitched metallic "tink" sounds, particularly when trying to accelerate up a slight hill in top gear from a low speed). If you don't hear any pinging advance the timing a bit more and go for another drive. If you do hear pinging, retard the timing a bit and go for a drive. You want it as advanced as possible without pinging.

    Roger

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    Didn't Citroen know that timing a motor like this with a locked crankshaft went out with manual advance? This isn't quirky, it goes with horseless carriages.

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Didn't Citroen know that timing a motor like this with a locked crankshaft went out with manual advance? This isn't quirky, it goes with horseless carriages.
    Seasink, you are talking about a company that retained a crank start facility for most of their models up to the end of the 2CV. They probably seriously considered it for the SM and the CX.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Didn't Citroen know that timing a motor like this with a locked crankshaft went out with manual advance? This isn't quirky, it goes with horseless carriages.
    They introduced a timing scale on the 1966, 5 main bearing crank DX range of engines the old long stroke engines date back to 1934.
    So not quite a horseless carriage idea, but certainly vintage!
    When the timing scale was introduced it was placed on a flimsy metal bracket on the camshaft driven auxiliary pulley. There was a lot of scope for inaccuracy. A fly wheel scale came with the GS although this was placed where one needed to use a mirror to get a straight line of sight from the bell housing pointer to the scale. Only when the CX was introduced (1974) was it actually possible to use a stroboscopic timing light with any degree of confidence!
    Cheers Gerry

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    I worry about the inexperienced home mechanic trying to time an early ID by ear especially if it still has 7 :1 compression pistons & he is fueling it with 98 octane fuel.
    The pin in the hole method is safe &, if the dash adjustment is still connected, it can allow small, fine adjustments when driving to allow the driver to judge if, say, 2* advance is an improvement or, just makes it cranky at low speeds. Likewise, a 2* retard may allow it to rev out better, or just make it sluggish off the mark.
    If the "listen for pinging" method is used, I would suggest using only 92 octane to make sure that pinging is audible. Over advanced ignition can break crankshafts, snap timing chains, & with sustained high revs [maybe a contradiction for an early ID ? ] burn holes in pistons. Don't ask how I know about this last factor !
    Of course it is easy enough to organise a pointer near the camshaft pulley & , after establishing top dead centre, marking out a degree scale on the pulley's circumference so that dynamic timing can be done accurately, & check the advance curve. Don't forget that 5* at the camshaft equals 10* at the flywheel.
    With all of this, it is important that the distributor is in good condition, & if it is removed for overhauling, don't forget to reconnect the little earth lead. Failure to do so results in an infuriating, intermittent stutter a week or so after you " fix " it each time.

    Keep having fun,
    Richard

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Can you see the flywheel teeth at all (like is possible on a 2CV)?

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    aligning the pin the hole method is also used on 2CVs. so, if your unsure about setting it yourself seek out a local 2CV enthusiast to assist you

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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Didn't Citroen know that timing a motor like this with a locked crankshaft went out with manual advance? This isn't quirky, it goes with horseless carriages.
    I fail to see your point. His car does have manual advance.

    Quote Originally Posted by citroenut View Post
    I worry about the inexperienced home mechanic trying to time an early ID by ear especially if it still has 7 :1 compression pistons & he is fueling it with 98 octane fuel.
    Why would anyone run a low compression engine on 98 octane fuel when 91 works just fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by citroenut View Post
    Over advanced ignition can break crankshafts, snap timing chains, & with sustained high revs [maybe a contradiction for an early ID ? ] burn holes in pistons.
    I do not advocate running for long periods with advanced timing, only long enough to detect pinging, and certainly not sustained high revs.

    Roger

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    I never have been able to find the hole for the pin. Can you see it or do you have to feel for it? Mine is a 2.1 DSuper5. I fitted 123 ignition then put it on a rolling road, same idea as Roger but you don't go anywhere and the operative twists the dizzy whilst looking at the power output.

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    I never have been able to find the hole for the pin. Can you see it or do you have to feel for it? Mine is a 2.1 DSuper5. I fitted 123 ignition then put it on a rolling road, same idea as Roger but you don't go anywhere and the operative twists the dizzy whilst looking at the power output.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Can you see the flywheel teeth at all (like is possible on a 2CV)?
    It is possible if you lie down under the car! the lower portion of the bell housing is open. I would hate to time an engine with home made timing marks here!
    It is easier to make a scale and mount it at the auxiliary drive pulley on the cam shaft! Marking the correct degrees might be a bit of a challenge. Later D,s had the scale on the bracket not on the pulley. There was a TDC mark on the pulley. If the timing chain is loose this will not be accurate.
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badabec View Post
    I never have been able to find the hole for the pin. Can you see it or do you have to feel for it? Mine is a 2.1 DSuper5. I fitted 123 ignition then put it on a rolling road, same idea as Roger but you don't go anywhere and the operative twists the dizzy whilst looking at the power output.
    Under the dynamo on the LHS of the bell housing close to the engine block. It is in a strengthened boss of cast aluminium!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone for the info.


    So I am still not sure.

    Reading everyone`s comment, I understood like this:

    1) Turn the manual ignition knob( inside car) to mid position.
    2) Connect test lamp, loose the distributor turn on the ignition and turn the distributor until lamp stay lit ?
    3) Tighten and go for drive.

    I heard about pinking. My friend NS explained that When driving car at 1 st or 2 nd gear press the accelerator rapidly all the way to the floor and I should hear the Pink Pink twice then I have correct timing. I tried but I did not hear much rather than some sound like crank shaft chain making noise, unless that was pinking sound and I am hearing multiple.

    Reason for me to adjust timing is that I felt there is not much power driving that car yes It can reach 140 km/h eventually. But When I am driving with 4th gear driving 100km/h and pressing accelerator pedal all the way to the floor I do`nt feel anything happening to the motor like modern car( I can see engine spins faster and go over 5000RPM). But I do`nt hear much from ID motor. Yes speed increase gradually.

    Because I have never driven other ID so I am not sure this is normal or not.

    If I know it is normal, the I will not touch ignition system.
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    Hi Kazu. I advise you to try the advice of Roger Wilkinson. As long as the points are in good condition and set properly and the condenser is in good nick, Roger's advice works well for me. Advance the timing by loosening the distributor until the idle "sounds smoothe", then tighten the distributor and do what Roger recommends. The advance/retard knob on the dash is for fine tuning on the run. It does the same as turning the distributorr by hand but you are able to advance and retard the timing while driving. Turn it until you hear it ping and then back it off a little. Then the ID is running at peak economy. The easiest way of identifying that "rattly" pinging noise is when the engine is labouring up a long hill in 4th gear. Roger has been driving these cars for a long time, so let's keep it simple!
    Good Luck -- Michael

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citroenut View Post
    I worry about the inexperienced home mechanic trying to time an early ID by ear especially if it still has 7 :1 compression pistons & he is fueling it with 98 octane fuel.
    The pin in the hole method is safe &, if the dash adjustment is still connected, it can allow small, fine adjustments when driving to allow the driver to judge if, say, 2* advance is an improvement or, just makes it cranky at low speeds. Likewise, a 2* retard may allow it to rev out better, or just make it sluggish off the mark.
    If the "listen for pinging" method is used, I would suggest using only 92 octane to make sure that pinging is audible. Over advanced ignition can break crankshafts, snap timing chains, & with sustained high revs [maybe a contradiction for an early ID ? ] burn holes in pistons. Don't ask how I know about this last factor !
    Of course it is easy enough to organise a pointer near the camshaft pulley & , after establishing top dead centre, marking out a degree scale on the pulley's circumference so that dynamic timing can be done accurately, & check the advance curve. Don't forget that 5* at the camshaft equals 10* at the flywheel.
    With all of this, it is important that the distributor is in good condition, & if it is removed for overhauling, don't forget to reconnect the little earth lead. Failure to do so results in an infuriating, intermittent stutter a week or so after you " fix " it each time.

    Keep having fun,
    Richard
    Interesting,

    I'd just advanced the pink ID19 until I found it seemed to run the best. I can't pick any signs of pinging, but it was hitting back on the starter when I tried to start it ............... So I've retarded it quite a bit from that point, and it still randomly hits back on the starter. I guess I'm way over-advanced and can't tell 'cos it drives fine. Infact for an ID19 I reckon it goes quite well.

    The blue ID19 isn't quite as grunty, but it's motor is much smoother and nicer ( that makes sense given it's been rebuilt). I'd just set it by the book.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    You can't see the timing hole, you need to feel for it in the bell housing, down behind the generator.



    See it ?? The small hole in the curved part of the bell housing behind the pulley.

    Tie the ignition key to the pin you use ..... You WILL try to crank it over with the pin in place otherwise!

    seeya,
    Shane l.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    You can't see the timing hole, you need to feel for it in the bell housing, down behind the generator.



    See it ?? The small hole in the curved part of the bell housing behind the pulley.

    Tie the ignition key to the pin you use ..... You WILL try to crank it over with the pin in place otherwise!

    seeya,
    Shane l.
    Thanks shane, but I cannot see the hole. Will you put an arrow in your picture
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Need advice - How to adjust ignition timing on ID19-timing_hole.jpg  
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    So, a belt-and-braces solution would be to centre the crank with the 6mm pin, then make up a scale for the cam pulley and zero it, with the advance/retard knob on zero.

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