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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! pajamas's Avatar
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    Default DS Starter

    The Safari has been sitting for a couple of weeks, on a trickle charger. After about 4 starts running errands today, she decided she didn't want to get up and go.

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    Fiddling with wires and a few sharp taps on the starter didn't help.

    Thank goodness she was on a hill! She started, and the starter even turned over as I held the key on for a bit too long.

    Thanks for all the info in this thread...

    D Spec starter motor - DAMN!!!

    I was hoping it might be a 'sticky' starter, but what does the brains trust think...? Time for a new starter?

    (groan...)


    Paul in Canberra

    1974 DS Safari (aka Sophie Safari)
    1972 SM (aka Simone, aka S'Moan)
    Subaru WRX

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Mort Subite's Avatar
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    Are you sure the starter is getting FULL POWER?
    Is the battery good?
    Has the starter been replaced?
    Using a new starter motor is a very good experience (if you need one).
    Fitting one is not a good experience.
    CITROEN CAR CLUB of NSW - MEMBER. www.citroencarclub.org.au. . .www.facebook.com/CCCNSW
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    Fellow Frogger! pajamas's Avatar
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    Battery is good, giving off a good charge.

    No idea if the starter has ever been replaced/refurbished. Certainly not since the early 2000s.

    Oh, well....


    Paul in Canberra

    1974 DS Safari (aka Sophie Safari)
    1972 SM (aka Simone, aka S'Moan)
    Subaru WRX

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    On the plus side, the new ones are available smaller, so heat soak might be lessened.

    A battery with internal faults will show the correct voltage but fail a load test. If this hasn't been explored try it first.

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    Fellow Frogger! Mort Subite's Avatar
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    Using a new starter motor is a very good experience (if you need one).
    Fitting one is not a good experience...

    Ive only seen a replacement done via the removal of exhaust manifolds, etc.
    CITROEN CAR CLUB of NSW - MEMBER. www.citroencarclub.org.au. . .www.facebook.com/CCCNSW
    08FD DSPECIAL "Dear Prudence wont you come out to play?"
    00FF7512 DS23SAFARI "Pull up to my bumper Baby, in your long black limousine."
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    YDO005 MORRIS MINI DELUXE "The Mini Deluxe floats on fluid too"

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    Default ds starter

    Definitely check if you have a relay on the starter and that the terminals are ok
    before removing starter.

    Cheers

  7. #7
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    How did this one scrub up?

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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    A great opportunity to do engine mounts, adjust handbrake, you could ceramic coat the exhaust manifold and engine pipe, maybe clutch cable, let the air filter soak and clean for a day, a general clean and tidy up, oh and the starter motor of course!
    Brilliant.

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    Fellow Frogger! pajamas's Avatar
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    Hey Addo, thanks for the bump.

    I was thinking today that I should update the thread....as I was driving her!

    The challenge has been that we are moving house this weekend, and Sophie was always a big part of this plan!

    Anyway, we have push started her a could of times - once in reverse. Remembering that until she starts and the hydraulics are pressurized, I just have the emergency brake between me and disaster!

    I turned the key today, a click, then nothing. I tried again, and she slowly turned over. Just enough juice.

    She seemed to start better from cold than when warm a bit later.

    The new starter can't be fitted soon enough


    Paul in Canberra

    1974 DS Safari (aka Sophie Safari)
    1972 SM (aka Simone, aka S'Moan)
    Subaru WRX

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    A great opportunity to do engine mounts, adjust handbrake, you could ceramic coat the exhaust manifold and engine pipe, maybe clutch cable, let the air filter soak and clean for a day, a general clean and tidy up, oh and the starter motor of course!
    Brilliant.
    Interesting about ceramic coating of manifold. This allegedly cuts radiated heat by 20 - 25%. Can anyone confirm this? it's on my bucket list for Sue.

    ScotFrog

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! pajamas's Avatar
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    Default DS Starter

    I thought about ceramic coating, but her temperature is always completely rock solid (aftermarket gauge fitted).

    Is the ceramic on the inside or outside? For some reason I had a feeling that it was on the inside.....


    Paul in Canberra

    1974 DS Safari (aka Sophie Safari)
    1972 SM (aka Simone, aka S'Moan)
    Subaru WRX

  12. #12
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    A good coating is inside and out. There was a mob in Castlemaine doing the silvery one, from memory.

    Unfortunately I think the sundry exhaust adventures of Paul Smith were lost in the GoDuddy crash. He played with wraps, paint, ceramics.

    Anyway - sounds like you'll benefit from the supervision of a Melbourne perfectionist, and his ounce of prevention ;-)

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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Paul, before you get carried away replacing the starter motor, do a proper load test on the battery and check all the terminals and cables. Anything hot is a sign of a poor connection.

    Roger

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson View Post
    Paul, before you get carried away replacing the starter motor, do a proper load test on the battery and check all the terminals and cables. Anything hot is a sign of a poor connection.

    Roger
    Including the 'earth" cable to the top of the water pump. I found my DS had high resistance at that point, shown by it getting warm, causing an occasionally sluggish starter.
    Michael
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    I recall that Paul's assessment of the ceramic coating/wrapping etc was that it was pretty much a waste of time and money.

    Good luck with the move - looking forward to seeing the new Maison de Citroen
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    A good coating is inside and out. There was a mob in Castlemaine doing the silvery one, from memory.

    Unfortunately I think the sundry exhaust adventures of Paul Smith were lost in the GoDuddy crash. He played with wraps, paint, ceramics.

    Anyway - sounds like you'll benefit from the supervision of a Melbourne perfectionist, and his ounce of prevention ;-)
    It was the mob in Castlemaine who quoted the reduced radiation figures to me. I saw their work and the chrome lookalike is impressive, lovely way to coat a casting. They also had a range of finishes including cast iron, on cast iron and still reducing radiation. Would love to hear if anyone has used them and if the reduced radiation stacks up.

    SF

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    I have always had my exhaust manifolds coated by HPC in Leongatha. They are coated inside and out and are a work of art. It's difficult to assess if the heat claims are accurate, but I have generally opted for any reasonable mod that is said to improve heat and performance, I believe it does both. Quite apart from that, it's one of the more tedious jobs to do on a DS, but refitting a beautifully coated manifold and engine pipe is an altogether more pleasant experience. I would do it a fourth time without question.

    mb
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DS Starter-img_0453.jpg   DS Starter-img_0451.jpg  

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! JAJEA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    I have always had my exhaust manifolds coated by HPC in Leongatha. They are coated inside and out and are a work of art. It's difficult to assess if the heat claims are accurate, but I have generally opted for any reasonable mod that is said to improve heat and performance, I believe it does both. Quite apart from that, it's one of the more tedious jobs to do on a DS, but refitting a beautifully coated manifold and engine pipe is an altogether more pleasant experience. I would do it a fourth time without question.

    mb
    Irrespective of the effectiveness, I would not hesitate to do it on aesthetics alone even if the heat shield covers most of it!

    I concur that it would be a pleasure to have to work on it in the future.

    (Might have to look for an excuse to remove the manifolds.)

    John

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    On the radiated heat transfer; if the quoted figures are correct then the manifold should only radiate 80% of pre-coat figures and then again the heat shield (also coated) should deliver 80% on 80%, that's 64% less heat distributed to the starter motor and bulkhead, and to adjacent suspension sphere.
    Even if the claims are excessive I'm going down this path, Mike Berry's comments re handling during assembly and aesthetics are too attractive.
    I wonder how you'd set up a simple experiment to verify the figures?

    SF

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    Including the 'earth" cable to the top of the water pump. I found my DS had high resistance at that point, shown by it getting warm, causing an occasionally sluggish starter.
    The D I just bought had starting issues, not so much winding the engine over but just not firing. I tracked it down to the earth lead to the top of the water pump Roger just nominated. The lead looked OK but the crimp had relaxed sufficiently for the cable to fret inside the crimp. Under load the starter may have been a bit sluggish but the current to the coil was also affected reducing spark intensity (my guess). Of interest was the second, lightweight, earth lead jury rigged by a previous owner (to help with earthing?!). With extended cranking the insulation was showing signs of blistering.
    I'd be checking that lead too.

    SF

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    Fellow Frogger! JAJEA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    The D I just bought had starting issues, not so much winding the engine over but just not firing. I tracked it down to the earth lead to the top of the water pump Roger just nominated. The lead looked OK but the crimp had relaxed sufficiently for the cable to fret inside the crimp. Under load the starter may have been a bit sluggish but the current to the coil was also affected reducing spark intensity (my guess). Of interest was the second, lightweight, earth lead jury rigged by a previous owner (to help with earthing?!). With extended cranking the insulation was showing signs of blistering.
    I'd be checking that lead too.

    SF
    By the by, crimped connectors are one of the most misunderstood form of terminal connections.

    There are companies out there that do nothing else - it is a highly engineered starting from the composition and size of the terminal to the crimpimg process.

    Ignore either one and troubles are a plenty.

    (If you were to cut through a proper crimpped terminal there will be "solid" copper within - no individual strands!)

  22. #22
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAJEA View Post
    By the by, crimped connectors are one of the most misunderstood form of terminal connections.

    There are companies out there that do nothing else - it is a highly engineered starting from the composition and size of the terminal to the crimpimg process.

    Ignore either one and troubles are a plenty.

    (If you were to cut through a proper crimpped terminal there will be "solid" copper within - no individual strands!)
    Oh,sweet Jesus, the jig is up! Well, it's a fair cop...
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAJEA View Post
    By the by, crimped connectors are one of the most misunderstood form of terminal connections.

    There are companies out there that do nothing else - it is a highly engineered starting from the composition and size of the terminal to the crimpimg process.

    Ignore either one and troubles are a plenty.

    (If you were to cut through a proper crimpped terminal there will be "solid" copper within - no individual strands!)
    In a previous life I worked on mobile radio communications equipment and we found the same. Good crimp connections are not just a squeeze with a pair of side cutters. Good crimp connections with proper strain relief allowing no movement at the crimp point will deliver the same current continuity or better than a solder connection and a solder connection is subject to failure over time much quicker than crimp.
    Crimping kits available at Auto shops are only 'get me home' solutions. As JAJEA states it is a highly engineered area of study, check any aircraft manufacturer specs. for an eye opener.

    SF

  24. #24
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    In a previous life I worked on mobile radio communications equipment and we found the same. Good crimp connections are not just a squeeze with a pair of side cutters. Good crimp connections with proper strain relief allowing no movement at the crimp point will deliver the same current continuity or better than a solder connection and a solder connection is subject to failure over time much quicker than crimp.
    Crimping kits available at Auto shops are only 'get me home' solutions. As JAJEA states it is a highly engineered area of study, check any aircraft manufacturer specs. for an eye opener.

    SF
    Here's a couple of sites to get you going:

    Application Tooling- TE
    Elpress
    Rennsteig Tools, Inc. - Main
    D.S. Precision Tool
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Well Pajamas,

    you picked a good time to do the starter, looks like everything is available, which wasn't the case 6 months ago. Once you've confirmed that the starter is the cause of your trouble, you can find everything here.

    Citroworld | Dť webshop voor al uw CitroŽn auto-onderdelen (CitroŽn DS, H, HY, HZ en 2CV) en speciale gereedschap

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