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Thread: Ligarex

  1. #1
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    Default Ligarex

    Oh no, my car is bleeding. Seems to be because my bump stops on the rear passenger side are 44 years young. (New boots fitted not that long ago before I purchased the car). I am looking forward to repairing this little problem myself. I have read the excellent information on bump stop replacement and rear boot fix so feel quite confident to do the repairs needed. I am a little unclear if I need to release pressure from the system before starting and with completion if I need to bleed air from same.

    Now I finally arrive to the post title. What size kit (as in width, thickness etc) do I need to buy? Can I get this locally (Australia)?

    Cheers
    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmoothFlow View Post
    Oh no, my car is bleeding. Seems to be because my bump stops on the rear passenger side are 44 years young. (New boots fitted not that long ago before I purchased the car). I am looking forward to repairing this little problem myself. I have read the excellent information on bump stop replacement and rear boot fix so feel quite confident to do the repairs needed. I am a little unclear if I need to release pressure from the system before starting and with completion if I need to bleed air from same.

    Now I finally arrive to the post title. What size kit (as in width, thickness etc) do I need to buy? Can I get this locally (Australia)?

    Cheers
    Brian

    Brian,

    Replacing the stops and/or the boot will not fix the underlying problem. The Telfon wear/sealing ring and rubber backing ring in the supension cylinder need to be replace first.

    1) Rear of car on stands

    2) Release system pressure and place car in its lowest suspension setting

    3) Remove rear sphere and hydraulic feed pipe

    4) Remove "U" clip so suspension push rod can be pulled loose

    5) Remove rear suspension cylinder/boot

    Check bump stop 'cups' and ensure that the bottom are flat where they sit/attach to the suspension arm. If either show any curvature putting in new rubber stops will be a real chore at best, if you can get them in at all.

    Keep in mind that when putting on the new gator you have to invert it prior to fixing the small end to the suspension rod with the ligerex banding. You also want to wrap a narrow strip of cloth (slight wider than the Ligerex banding) around the rubber prior to installing the Ligerex. This prevents the Ligerex from cutting the inside of the gator after you invert it back to its normal state before attaching to the end of the suspension cylinder.

    As to the Ligerex itself. Should be available from local suppliers in OZ. The width that I have always gotten, either from local (USA) sources or from overseas is 5mm in width.

    Steve

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    CCCNSW Club Shop has Ligarex.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    ... wrap a narrow strip of cloth (slight wider than the Ligerex banding) around the rubber prior to installing the Ligerex. ...
    You can sometimes guess how long ago the job was last done if there is a pattern on the fabric!

    If you don't have the Ligarex banding and/or pliers, don't despair. A similar system is used by many steering and driveshaft workshops, so you could probably obtain a length that way. Once it's been fitted and the end trimmed off, there is no longer enough left to fit the special Ligarex pliers, but you might improvise with pliers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    Brian,

    Replacing the stops and/or the boot will not fix the underlying problem. The Telfon wear/sealing ring and rubber backing ring in the supension cylinder need to be replace first.

    1) Rear of car on stands

    2) Release system pressure and place car in its lowest suspension setting

    3) Remove rear sphere and hydraulic feed pipe

    4) Remove "U" clip so suspension push rod can be pulled loose

    5) Remove rear suspension cylinder/boot

    Check bump stop 'cups' and ensure that the bottom are flat where they sit/attach to the suspension arm. If either show any curvature putting in new rubber stops will be a real chore at best, if you can get them in at all.

    Keep in mind that when putting on the new gator you have to invert it prior to fixing the small end to the suspension rod with the ligerex banding. You also want to wrap a narrow strip of cloth (slight wider than the Ligerex banding) around the rubber prior to installing the Ligerex. This prevents the Ligerex from cutting the inside of the gator after you invert it back to its normal state before attaching to the end of the suspension cylinder.

    As to the Ligerex itself. Should be available from local suppliers in OZ. The width that I have always gotten, either from local (USA) sources or from overseas is 5mm in width.

    Steve
    Hi Steve

    Thanks for that, shall do. While I'm at it I will fix the ball and cup as sometimes on lift off there is a snapping sound.

    Cheers
    Brian
    1970 D Super. (Little Miss Petite).

    To quote Maxwell Smart........"And Loving It!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Subite View Post
    CCCNSW Club Shop has Ligarex.
    Thanks for the contact. Ian was very helpful.

    Cheers
    Brian
    1970 D Super. (Little Miss Petite).

    To quote Maxwell Smart........"And Loving It!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    You can sometimes guess how long ago the job was last done if there is a pattern on the fabric!

    If you don't have the Ligarex banding and/or pliers, don't despair. A similar system is used by many steering and driveshaft workshops, so you could probably obtain a length that way. Once it's been fitted and the end trimmed off, there is no longer enough left to fit the special Ligarex pliers, but you might improvise with pliers.
    I suppose there is always more than one way to skin a cat!

    Cheers
    Brian
    1970 D Super. (Little Miss Petite).

    To quote Maxwell Smart........"And Loving It!"

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    Hi David,

    That 'can' work with some of the rubber pieces on a D - but the rear suspension boot ain't one of them . That interior band, as well as the exterior band, needs to be tight, as in really tight. If not and there is any seepage from the suspension cylinder (and there will be) the fluid will leak by those joints instead of being returned to the main reservoir via the seepage return lines as the car's suspension goes up and down. Those rear boots act as simple pumps in that regard as well as protecting the rear cylinders/pistons from dirt and debris.

    Steve

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    Brian,

    When you take the rear ball and socket off, check the socket(s) for one or two ridges in either the 12 and/or 6 0'clock positions. Those ridges, if present, are the normal cause of the snapping sound you hear. Carefully grind them down so the walls are smooth. Clean well. When you reassemble use a high quality high pressure bearing grease.

    Steve

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    Replacing the stops and/or the boot will not fix the underlying problem. The Telfon wear/sealing ring and rubber backing ring in the supension cylinder need to be replace first.
    Let's not overthink this. Kind of like the time when you told the car owner he needed a whole new wiring harness after taking a look and it was only an unplugged wire on the starter lead near the battery.



    Gain your access to the rear boot and give it a thorough inspection first. Then make a decision on what is really leaking.

    Replacement rear sockets are readily available. Grinding is a hit and miss operation these days. Many have been ground before they got to us.

    If you do actually need a cylinder refurbished, consult somebody who actually knows and understands what they are doing and has a proven track record for getting things right.

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    Regarding the suspension. Maybe, the ball in the cup/socket and suspension rod end are just worn out and allowing it to contact the cup? It obviously wasn't meant to do so when it was made. The tired bump stops won't help, but a new ball would be significantly less expensive than the cup and the rod.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Regarding the suspension. Maybe, the ball in the cup/socket and suspension rod end are just worn out and allowing it to contact the cup? It obviously wasn't meant to do so when it was made. The tired bump stops won't help, but a new ball would be significantly less expensive than the cup and the rod.
    The ball surface is much harder than either the cup or or the suspension rod surfaces it pivots between.
    Replacing the ball only, is ineffective. Sorry.

  13. #13
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    Well, yes, being a ball bearing, it should be hard. However, they do wear out of round and that would allow the rod end to move about more than it was intended to. If the rod end is worn, it's likely to move around too. Grinding out the grooves is just going to mask the wear and possibly stop the noise, but it won't fix a worn ball and/or rod.

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    Hi Brian.

    I have recently tackled this task, with pics!
    DS rear suspension clunkDS rear suspension clunk

    I used the drive shaft boot strap that David mentioned, you can get them plenty tight! Note the distortion of the rubber in my pic, this was using needle nose pliers, I suggest getting the correct tensioning tool which attaches to a ratchet spanner.

    Also I had the rods ground by a local head machinist, he also replaced the balls, common size, worked a treat, cost $40, although my cups badly worn...

    Hope that helps.

    Harley

    Sent via the future...

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Well, yes, being a ball bearing, it should be hard. However, they do wear out of round and that would allow the rod end to move about more than it was intended to. If the rod end is worn, it's likely to move around too. Grinding out the grooves is just going to mask the wear and possibly stop the noise, but it won't fix a worn ball and/or rod.

    David and Harley,

    Have done this job about 8 times over the past 30 years on both my own cars and those of others.

    1) That ball bearing basically does not 'wear out'. I have yet to find one that was actually worn and this is from measuring them to the nearest 0.0001". The cause of the grooves on the inside of the cups comes from a lack of grease caused by failure of the protective boot. This, in turn, causes the rod end to 'jump' off the ball when coming off of the stop after the car has settled over night. That 'ridge' is the source of the snapping sound.

    2) If the rod end is machined it also needs to be hard chrome plated (as was done from the factory). The metal of the rod end does not provide a sufficiently hard enough surface. The only time I have seen a problem there is from water intrusion - IOW corrosion.

    3) The cup's ball seat can be renewed with the correct sized ball end mill, if in fact it is damaged. There is sufficient surface area for the ball to ride against that the metal does not need to be treated. Out of about 20 of those things I have seen only 2 or 3 needed renewing - and that was, again, from rust not wear.

    My 72 DS 21 had that problem when I acquired it in 2001. I cleaned up the ridges in the cups with a small rotary stone. Replaced the dust/grease boots and reassembled using the original rods and ball bearings. Now that car had almost 496,000 total miles on it when purchased and frankly was a bleeding disaster, mechanically and hydraulically. Have no idea if the rod/cups/balls had been replaced in the past though I have to think they had been. The car now has 638,000+ miles on it and the rear suspension rods/cups/balls are as good as the day I reassembled them.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    David and Harley,
    Now that car had almost 496,000 total miles on it when purchased and frankly was a bleeding disaster, mechanically and hydraulically.
    Steve
    Come on now. I know you got some annoying leaks taken care of but let's not use so much sugar coating now that you have beaten the piss out of it since you got it going. Be sure to include the failed clutch fork, the broken clutch parts, all the lunched BVH gearboxes, the rear swingarm that nearly fell off, the completely worn out and unsafe ball joints that you finally fixed. Didn't the bonnet recently blow off the chassis at speed due to metal fatigue? Remember when we got to my place and a rear wing was missing? Great, fun car, but it certainly shows its age nowadays and will continue to do so, much like the time when you first got her.

    Via the aussiefrogs App
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    Can't you chaps kiss and make up?
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    Come on now. I know you got some annoying leaks taken care of but let's not use so much sugar coating now that you have beaten the piss out of it since you got it going. Be sure to include the failed clutch fork, the broken clutch parts, all the lunched BVH gearboxes, the rear swingarm that nearly fell off, the completely worn out and unsafe ball joints that you finally fixed. Didn't the bonnet recently blow off the chassis at speed due to metal fatigue? Remember when we got to my place and a rear wing was missing? Great, fun car, but it certainly shows its age nowadays and will continue to do so, much like the time when you first got her.

    Via the aussiefrogs App
    Walt,

    That is all true - though the 'lunched' BVH box was the result of a fingered clutch plate that failed during a highspeed shift from 1st to 2nd . And when I say 'highspeed' engine RPM was somewhat north of 5500...And yes the engine was modified when I rebuilt the frozen POS that was in the car when I got it. I always wanted a DS 'hotrod' and that 72 has filled the bill. I still smile from the comment you made a few years ago after the first days run of the road tour. That was when the fellow in the Triumph TR6 was desperately trying to catch the 72 on the Ojai Highway (SR33). When he got to Paso Robles he was demanding that you tell him what in the hell (his words according to you) was under the hood of that Cit . When that swing arm came loose - it made me take a really close look at the rear of the car. It had been hit hard at one point in its long life - though the repair work that was done was extremely good. The RS rear wing came off on my way home after being out at your place. Metal fatigue around the securing bolt was the culprit. Same thing happened with the hood. Though being at just a bit over 100 mph (GPS speed) with a strong cross wind may well have had been a contributing factor.Then I got creamed at an intersection in Hollywood on the other side a few months after that discovery. Talk about symmetry....... Presently the car is up on stands - its body panels off and stripped and on their way to the paint shop. New door panels here from Miles and upholstery going in. With a bit of luck will have it back on the road in 6 to 8 weeks.

    Addo - Would not kiss him on a bet - well if the price was right might consider a 'peck' - don't want to get him to bloody excited. Bad for his heart.............

    Steve
    Last edited by Citroenfan; 12th February 2014 at 12:32 PM.

  19. #19
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    Great story Steve!

    I do think you are being a bit dramatic about the fix required in the OP, I have no doubt it comes from experience, sometimes our love for these cars lets the emotions boil over.

    Back to your story, I luv that you drive the DS hard and expect gteat things from it, the way it should be.
    Reminds me of when I didn't take the advise to remove my hubcaps when travelling on long fast dirt road, I had driven it gor years and never lost one.
    This time when being followed by family I hit a pothole at 100k's and the front left hubcap launched into the stratosphere!
    It took 30mins to find it in the bush on a high embankment, much further down the road to what my knowledge of physics could comprehend. ..
    I wouldn't change that experience if I had the chance. Albeit a lesson learnt

    Harley

    Sent via the future...

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    This is turning into apocryphal story time... here's mine.

    Christmas time about twenty years ago. I had driven home from work (50k) to pick up my wife then driven back to the city (65k) for the office Christmas party. Everybody smoked in restaurants in these days and by midnight, eyes streaming from the smoke my wife and I set off home again. I was driving a DS21 I think. I know it was one before the later flush door-handles as will become apparent.

    I hadn't had too much to drink, certainly not over the limit but was struggling to keep my eyes open. Nearly home on the last bit of dirt road fighting off sleep I lost the fight. I woke up to my wife's screaming and doing about 100kph in the bush. Gum trees and streamers of wire grass flashed past as I managed to steer past one potential carnage spot then another not even sure which side of the road I was on.
    I had a feeling that it was on my right and steered for this heading scrubbing off as much speed as I dared. If I had slammed the anchors on I would have lost steerage-way completely. I re-joined the road still doing about 60k.

    Next morning I inspected the GODDESS!! There was grass trailing from the roof mounted centre aerial and both the driver's door and front passenger's door had a slight ding in them round the door handles with traces of tree bark in the buttons. I must have scuffed a couple of trees in the bush bash. I went back to the scene and retraced my tracks. It was very obvious where I had left the road and for 150 yards or so, obvious where I had been. I even managed to find the two trees I had scuffed. The gap between them was 15mm less than the maximum width of a DS! Well, WAS 15mm less but after my passage was now exactly DS width.

    Wow I loved that car!
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    Come on now. I know you got some annoying leaks taken care of but let's not use so much sugar coating now that you have beaten the piss out of it since you got it going. Be sure to include the failed clutch fork, the broken clutch parts, all the lunched BVH gearboxes, the rear swingarm that nearly fell off, the completely worn out and unsafe ball joints that you finally fixed. Didn't the bonnet recently blow off the chassis at speed due to metal fatigue? Remember when we got to my place and a rear wing was missing? Great, fun car, but it certainly shows its age nowadays and will continue to do so, much like the time when you first got her.

    Via the aussiefrogs App
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
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    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    This is turning into apocryphal story time... here's mine.

    Christmas time about twenty years ago. I had driven home from work (50k) to pick up my wife then driven back to the city (65k) for the office Christmas party. Everybody smoked in restaurants in these days and by midnight, eyes streaming from the smoke my wife and I set off home again. I was driving a DS21 I think. I know it was one before the later flush door-handles as will become apparent.

    I hadn't had too much to drink, certainly not over the limit but was struggling to keep my eyes open. Nearly home on the last bit of dirt road fighting off sleep I lost the fight. I woke up to my wife's screaming and doing about 100kph in the bush. Gum trees and streamers of wire grass flashed past as I managed to steer past one potential carnage spot then another not even sure which side of the road I was on.
    I had a feeling that it was on my right and steered for this heading scrubbing off as much speed as I dared. If I had slammed the anchors on I would have lost steerage-way completely. I re-joined the road still doing about 60k.

    Next morning I inspected the GODDESS!! There was grass trailing from the roof mounted centre aerial and both the driver's door and front passenger's door had a slight ding in them round the door handles with traces of tree bark in the buttons. I must have scuffed a couple of trees in the bush bash. I went back to the scene and retraced my tracks. It was very obvious where I had left the road and for 150 yards or so, obvious where I had been. I even managed to find the two trees I had scuffed. The gap between them was 15mm less than the maximum width of a DS! Well, WAS 15mm less but after my passage was now exactly DS width.

    Wow I loved that car!
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harley View Post
    Hi Brian.

    I have recently tackled this task, with pics!
    DS rear suspension clunkDS rear suspension clunk

    I used the drive shaft boot strap that David mentioned, you can get them plenty tight! Note the distortion of the rubber in my pic, this was using needle nose pliers, I suggest getting the correct tensioning tool which attaches to a ratchet spanner.

    Also I had the rods ground by a local head machinist, he also replaced the balls, common size, worked a treat, cost $40, although my cups badly worn...

    Hope that helps.

    Harley

    Sent via the future...
    Hi Harley

    Thank you for the link and advice. A picture says a thousand words.

    Cheers
    Brian
    1970 D Super. (Little Miss Petite).

    To quote Maxwell Smart........"And Loving It!"

  24. #24
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    Thanks to Ian McIntyre, Denton Christie and this Forum I have now replaced one rear suspension boot (one only had been replaced, so now have a spare) and four bump stop rubbers. Most enjoyable and satisfying job.

    Cheers
    Brian.
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  25. #25
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    Last week I replaced the inner and outer CV boots on my 2CV. The boot kit contained the boot, grease and a metal band. The metal bands had a whole heap of holes with a couple of teeth. The idea was to get it as tight as possible and clip the teeth into the holes. Then, using pincer pliers, clamp the "saddle" and it should tension up OK. Well, it did for for a couple of them, but it didn't for another two, a 50% success rate. I then went to Repco and got their metal band, which requires a special tool to work properly. It is passable for the moment, but needs to be redone.

    I need to get some more parts from Viking in France, so Ligarex banding will be on the list. I have the pliers and I still think Ligarex gives one of the neatest solutions, and is easy to undo.

    John

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