Aircon. DS 23
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Thread: Aircon. DS 23

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Aircon. DS 23

    I want to know if my aircon. is factory fitted, as it was disputed by someone.
    It is a 1974 DS 23. The aircon. brand is: Autoclima, made in Turin Italy. On the boot I have a metal plate saying DS 23 Automatique. The front bumper has the air vents in the bottom part. I believe the car was first owned for quite a few years by a car dealer named Maxim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winkbul45 View Post
    I want to know if my aircon. is factory fitted, as it was disputed by someone.
    It is a 1974 DS 23. The aircon. brand is: Autoclima, made in Turin Italy. On the boot I have a metal plate saying DS 23 Automatique. The front bumper has the air vents in the bottom part. I believe the car was first owned for quite a few years by a car dealer named Maxim.
    This is factory air, a centre console and eyeball vents replacing the fresh air vents (these have an alluminium housings and are totally different to standard vents). There are very few cars in Australia fitted with 'factory air'. Very rare!!



    Autoclima is an aftermarket set-up fitted by dealers here in Australia, and for that matter around the world, quite common.

    This is an Autoclima unit as fitted to my own car.



    Cheers
    Chris
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Aircon. DS 23-ds-factory-air5.jpg   Aircon. DS 23-under-dash-aircon.jpg  
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Autoclima made a series of universal and vehicle model specific aftermarket aircon systems.

    They also made a skinny gutted "universal , adjustable" system which telescoped to suit the vehicle width.

    AFAIK autoclima aftermarket was never fitted as OEM but it may have been fitted by or on behalf of dealers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Autoclima made a series of universal and vehicle model specific aftermarket aircon systems.

    They also made a skinny gutted "universal , adjustable" system which telescoped to suit the vehicle width.

    AFAIK autoclima aftermarket was never fitted as OEM but it may have been fitted by or on behalf of dealers.
    It must have been fitted on Citroens behalf though, as they also included the twin condensors and vented bumper etc... for these cars. So the factory must have known and agreed with A/C being fitted by the dealer and spec'd the cars as such

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    In the aftermarket era of auto aircon stuff it was not unusual for a vehicle to be designed by the manufacturer to have aircon.

    It was possible to have the factory designed air installed by the dealer, ie have an OEM factory kit fitted.

    The other option was to have a Auto Clima non factory kit fitted. The Auto clima kits were a lot cheaper and essentially used standard auto clima components adapted by brackets to suit the OEM fixing points.

    Until a few years ago it was the same deal with Toyota vehicles. You could buy the dealer fitted ND toyota kit or buy the Australian made Palm Air non original kit which largely bolted up to the Toyota mounting holes. The Palm air hkit was half the price of the factory kit (and worked no where near as well!)

  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Rob,

    The thing is, only cars sold with air conditioning had the "slotted bumper" and "vented undertray" for Air conditioned cars. The water pumps were also different. DS's can't really handle a condensor mounted infront of the radiator, so all the dealer/factory sold cars have twin condensers mounted down in the front undertray, with a specially vented bumper.

    For the dealers to buy in understrays, pumps, bumpers and the associated mountings for the compressor etc.... I imagine would cost enormously ... ie: i think the local cars would have been fitted with those Auto Clima parts at the factory, or the car was sent out fitted with the required mounting point and body parts but no A/C components fitted ie: the car left the factory "ready" for A/C. All the dealers need to do was bolt the components in.

    The CX for example, they could just fit A/C to that like any car, as it didn't have different bumpers, twin condensers fitted in the undertray etc.... They just fabricated a compressor mount and fitted up everything.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Oh gosh, round and round and round we go, where we stop no one knows

    Let's clarify, in the first picture above I've shown 'Factory Air' it was designed and built exclusively for the last dash Citroen D model and fitted at the 'Factory'. Winkbul45 does not have 'Factory Air'!!!!

    I would doubt that any of these cars made it to Australia through dealerships, only as private imports - I could be wrong?

    The way I understand it. . .

    The Autoclima unit was designed to fit the last dash Citroen D model but was not fitted at the factory, it was supplied with a Citroen service bulletin and fitted by dealers as an aftermarket option. I would suspect that cars ordered with the aircon option here, would have been shipped with the bumpers and other required components but final fitment took place at the dealerships, this is one reason some cars have the hacked front guards with ventilation fins tacked on. Greg Fienburg could no doubt confirm either way. Autoclima and a few variants seen on both LHD and RHD cars were sanctioned by Citroen were but never factory fitted.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    It's also worth noting that there are quite a few late DS23s without AC that have vented front bumpers and appear to have been built that way.
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    All export d models to the USA had the slotted bumpers in 72, regardless of whether or not the car was specced with aircon.

    Via the aussiefrogs App

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    It's also worth noting that there are quite a few late DS23s without AC that have vented front bumpers and appear to have been built that way.
    Mine is one very such DS.
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    If I decide to remove the fitted Autoclima air conditioning from my D Special, does anyone know if it is liable to leave unsightly scars anywhere?

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    Fading on some trim perhaps, although it's mostly black vinyl. The screw/bolt holes are under the dash, so they shouldn't be visible. You may be missing a bent black painted strip under the glovebox that hides the heater cables and would be removed to fit the A/C unit. Perhaps, better to keep it and make it work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    All export d models to the USA had the slotted bumpers in 72, regardless of whether or not the car was specced with aircon.

    Via the aussiefrogs App
    As Daffy notes that is how all 72 D's were shipped to the US. Once here those destined for A/C had the Cool Aire under dash unit, installed. I should also mention that my 69 1/2 Safari has the 'slotted' bumpers - never had A/C installed. The factory did some strange things - more than just a few BVM Safari's were sold new with the acclerated idle device mounted on the carburetor. And it was plumbed and functional - have never had anyone given me an explanation for that one little item

    Would also like to clear up some real misconceptions about A/C and non A/C water pumps. Over the years have repaired a fair number of the A/C pumps for owners here in the US. Of the 30 or so pumps I have in the past 10 years or so about 1/2 were OEM pumps - never been molested. Internally they use the same two bearings and POS shaft seal. IOW inside they are/were identical. The others had been f*%ked with with odd ball bearings, grease ports - you name it. Typically, much the owner's surprise, they failed in a fairly short time after being screwed with.

    The OEM pumps (A/C and non A/C), as well as the Spanish replacement pumps use two bearings - a 6301 (front) and a 6201 (rear). Look up the load specs for them and you will find that, typically, the 6301 has a 2200 lb load capacity and the 6201 is 1600 lbs. Far more than what is needed for even a A/C equipped car. There is one main reason those pumps fail - be it an A/C one or a non A/C one - Water intrusion

    The shaft or stationary seal, in the OEM units, was made of polished mild steel. Not good. The rotating seal mounted on the shaft was made out of phenolic material . Over time, especially if the cooling system was not maintained properly (which was more the norm than not), the steel face of the stationary seal became pitted allowing water to seep past it into the interior of the pump body. Now the factory knew this was going to happen. That is why there is the nylon drain hose attached to a brass nipple on the bottom of the OEM pumps at the engine side. Additionally there is an 'anti vacuum' hole drilled in top of the pump body to allow for proper drainage.

    Inside the pump body casting is a 'well' area (best way to describe it) that was suppose to 'trap' any seepage and allow it drain safely out before it could get into the real shaft support bearing (6201). System works just fine so long as seepage is at a minimum and the anti-vacuum hole is clear. What would happen is that seepage would increase due to pitting of the stationary seal. Add to that was that with most all of the failed pumps I have rebuilt - the anti-vacuum hole was clogged with dirt. The end result was that hot water would, over time, reach the interior bearing and wash out its lubrication. As that one starts to fail two things happen. One - more water seepage via the shaft seal and Two - increased the side torque on the front bearing resulting in its eventual failure.

    The only way to rebuild those pumps so they basically will last 100,000 + miles is to use a shaft seal where the stationary seal is made out of ceramics. That is how the non A/C replacement pumps from Spain are constructed. It is also how Red Dillinger made his and is how I rebuild the ones I do.

    All of the screwed up pumps (previously worked on) I have fixed had massive bearings put in the front. However the rear steel stationary seal had just been removed, skimmed/polished, and reused. A recipe for failure.

    Hope this helps clear up some misconceptions.

    Steve
    Last edited by Citroenfan; 9th January 2014 at 12:44 PM.
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    Don't forget the massive number of failed pumps you continue to work on.

    Last I checked, this thread was about aircon. Your wagon is irrelevant as those bumpers weren't even available when your car was built. Ergo, it, like most these days, has had a bumper replacement.

    Now if you really want to help somebody, offer up some kit so they can install some aircon. Most of world actually likes the stuff.

    Via the aussiefrogs App

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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    Don't forget the massive number of failed pumps you continue to work on.

    Last I checked, this thread was about aircon. Your wagon is irrelevant as those bumpers weren't even available when your car was built. Ergo, it, like most these days, has had a bumper replacement.

    Now if you really want to help somebody, offer up some kit so they can install some aircon. Most of world actually likes the stuff.

    Via the aussiefrogs App
    It puzzled me also - so I checked and it is the original bumper. In thinking about it I suppose it could have been that the car was ordered with A/C and then the purchaser had a change of heart. At this point in time and space it is a bit hard to know.

    As to the water pumps - if you would get off your walking stick for just a moment and re-read some to the posts you would realize that topic was brought up . Just wanted to get the record straight about the two types as there is a lot of continuing mis-information about the factory supplied pumps. Some of it by people who should know better - a lot better . I, personally, have nothing against D's with A/C. Both of mine do - it is the 2/70 system. Works like a charm, never needs service.......

    Steve
    Last edited by Citroenfan; 9th January 2014 at 06:50 PM.
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  16. #16
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    We call it the 4x100 system here.
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    Which of the two systems work best? The aftermarket or factory fit. With only two eyeball vents (& possible side ones?) the Aussie fitted aftermarket looks more promising.
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    It puzzled me also - so I checked and it is the original bumper. In thinking about it I suppose it could have been that the car was ordered with A/C and then the purchaser had a change of heart. At this point in time and space it is a bit hard to know.

    As to the water pumps - if you would get off your walking stick for just a moment and re-read some to the posts you would realize that topic was brought up . Just wanted to get the record straight about the two types as there is a lot of continuing mis-information about the factory supplied pumps. Some of it by people who should know better - a lot better . I, personally, have nothing against D's with A/C. Both of mine do - it is the 2/70 system. Works like a charm, never needs service.......

    Steve

    Steve
    Never mind Daffyduck; thank you for a very informative lesson on water pumps. Water pumps are part of the original Thread as to what constitutes a Factory Air-conditioning installation with the innuendo that a Factory Air-conditioning has a "special water pump" your spiel is appropriate.

    It was I that raised the original Thread sometime last year as I had / have a D that was alleged to have Factory Air! It does not have Factory Air just as Winkbul45's D does not.

    Everybody seems to believe that just because a D has air-conditioning with cutouts in the bumpers then it must be a Citroen factory installation. Not necessarily so.

    Daffyduck's advice re Citroens in the US being imported with holes in the bumpers is spot on. This is precisely what happened to Citroens imported into Australia. They came into the country with holes in the bumpers just in case a buyer wanted air-conditioning, if they did, the Dealer would locally install. They did not bother to import with air conditioning as no doubt back in those days it was a big luxury item and thus relatively rare.

    Everybody is aware of (alleged?) cooling problems of the D, so, for once Citroen did the right thing to make provision for cooling of the condensers in lieu of placing them in front of the radiator as is the norm.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    Which of the two systems work best? The aftermarket or factory fit. With only two eyeball vents (& possible side ones?) the Aussie fitted aftermarket looks more promising.
    I would very much doubt there are too many people in Australia that have experienced both to give you a qualified answer. I've not seen the original factory air in any car only pictures.

    What we can say is the original factory air used 60/70's technologies i.e. York compressor, later aftermarket installations used a far more efficient rotary compressor typically Sanden.

    The later installations place a reasonable sized condenser in front of the radiator rather than the two quite small units fitted into the front valance left and right, the airflow through these units was poor at best. Contrary to popular belief, in my experience the condenser in front of the radiator has had little or no impact on engine cooling (overheating).

    The centre floor console and vents, used on the factory installation is not ideally placed, hard up against the biggest heat soak in a D the engine itself, and in close proximity to the exhaust running under the front seats. On the other hand the aftermarket evaporator and across dash vents are better positioned to give a cool blast to both driver and passenger.

    If we are giving points for looks the factory unit wins hands down, but I'd back the aftermarket installations for practicality. I think too the likes of the Autoclima units have earned their place in DS history as an approved accessory as did the Robri add ons.

    So short answer - One unit is Cool, the other cools

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    Which of the two systems work best? The aftermarket or factory fit. With only two eyeball vents (& possible side ones?) the Aussie fitted aftermarket looks more promising.
    The effectiveness of an A/C system has far more to do with overall design than the number of cold air outlets My own experience with cars in the US with both the a center console (as pictured) and the under dash system by Cool Aire (factory installed in the US) has been that both were capable of blowing cold air in about equal quantities as long as the proper amount of coolant was in the system and the compressor, condensers, drier, evaporator and the thermo-expansion valve were all working correctly. OTOH either could be non-functional if something was haywire somewhere .

    Steve
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    Also remember you lose knee room with the AutoClima system. Added to that is the loss of part of the footwell for an EFI car. So, a floor mounted unit in the centre front floor has an appeal. I can think of three cars offhand fitted with a MkIV unit on the front floor, two late autos and a BVH. So I wonder whether it may have been because of the brake release handle location not suiting the AutoClima unit. Another difference is that these cars had the piping routed through the right side of the scuttle where the driver's blower is sometimes fitted. The AutoiClima unit runs a hose out the left of the scuttle and then across to the right and doesn't affect either blower. Not all cars had the right side blower to begin with.

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    No problem with getting access to the under dash foot parking brake release knob in my 23 injection automatic. I made some extra holes along the lowest edge of the distribution box to allow a small breeze to the drivers footwell....just melted some holes in the Autoclima plastic box using a heated old socket. A good upgrade is to replace the old reciprocator piston type compressor ... they create fatigue cracks near the adjustment pivot at the base of the Heath Robinson bracketry on the bell housing. I am amazed to see the number of SMs that still have piston compressors, given their tendency to stress chains to the jackshaft and camshafts. SMs of course do not mount the compressor to the engine lump like a DS.

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