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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! lamoor's Avatar
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    Default Tyres for ds

    hi all

    any good suggestions for replacing XVS's all round. anyone tried alternatives with good results. not after high speed performance just good comfort/quiet and balanced performance.

    thanks

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Yes if I were you I would replace them with XVS, the tyres as close to the original tyre/suspension design as possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamoor View Post
    hi all

    any good suggestions for replacing XVS's all round. anyone tried alternatives with good results. not after high speed performance just good comfort/quiet and balanced performance.

    thanks

    There are any number of good quality tires available that are equal to or superior to the old XVS design. What a post 66 D series needs is a high quality tire with a flexible side wall. So anything designed for light truck or van use is not recommended. The real problem is going to be rear wheel wing (fender) clearance on pre 72 sedans with anything not in a 185x15 (185/80x15) size. You can find 185 tires smaller in diameter - such as 185/70's but they will screw up your speedo/odometer readings if used on the front

    185/80x15 are approx. 26.7" in diameter when inflated to 32psi.

    186/70x15 are approx. 25.2" in diameter under the same condition

    205/70x15 are approx 26.3" in diameter. Close enough for most gov't work .

    Most of us in the US that drive our cars on a daily or regular basis have opted for 205/70x15 for the fronts. If a 72 or later you can also use them in the rear. I have been able to get them to fit on pre 72's but it requires a lot of finagling with rear wing mounting brackets.

    Personally I use the Yokohama Avid Ascends without the use of tubes - extremely good tire at an attractive price. The D rims will take a tubeless tire - even though they lack the so-called safety lan. In over 300,000 miles of driving a D on tubeless tires I have never had a problem - and that has included a couple of blow-outs at very high speeds (over 100mph). Also it is not a good idea to put tubes in tubeless tires. Keep in mind that when Michelin designed the D rims the aim was that with the use of Michelin tires no weights should be needed as long as the rim was undamaged. On both by 691/2 Safari and my 72 DS 21 the Yokohama tires have not needed any wights to balance the wheels. That is one good sign of a well made tire. One big downside of the 205/70's is that they will barely fit in the spare tire area in front of the radiator.

    A few owners I know have shod their cars with Federal 185/80x15 tires when they show up - hard to find here in the US. So far reports have been positive. OTOH none of these cars get driven as much or as hard as I drive mine .

    Steve

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    Discussions about tyres are premature. A full moon is not due for a while yet.

    However, the best tyres to fit to a DS to replace XVS are, remarkably enough, XVS.

    Source from Longstone Tyres in the UK, 2 at a time so as to avoid possible GST implications.

    Michelin XVS | Buy Vintage Tyres Online - FAST DELIVERY WORLDWIDE
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    Discussions about tyres are premature. A full moon is not due for a while yet.

    However, the best tyres to fit to a DS to replace XVS are, remarkably enough, XVS.

    Source from Longstone Tyres in the UK, 2 at a time so as to avoid possible GST implications.

    Michelin XVS | Buy Vintage Tyres Online - FAST DELIVERY WORLDWIDE
    Nothing looks quite right like XVS's on a DS .................... But C'mon, nearly $2000 for a set of tires .... or maybe $500 through your local tire store if you can find something in 205R15 ............... Given the way I demolish front tires when fitted to the front of just about any Citroen, I'd go the local tire.

    I'm trying to be careful with the 400mm tires on the ID's ............. But the bodyroll and sheer bloody terror on the drivers faces around you is quite addictive :rolfmao: After all the speed you have took long enough to build up, you don't want to loose it just 'cos there's a few corners in the way

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    Default 1805 x 15

    This is not the first time this topic has risen. Most, including myself would always recommend the Michelin because they're so critical to the D driving experience.
    I have often thought these were the best alternative, although I have never tried them myself, I have heard they can be a bit noisey. The reason I thought them worth considering is they have a similar sidewall so the car should at least look correct.
    MB

    185/70R15 | Antique Tyres
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tyres for ds-vresestein-sprint.jpg   Tyres for ds-vredstein-sprint-classic_2.jpg  
    Last edited by mberry; 7th January 2014 at 11:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    This is not the first time this topic has risen. Most, including myself would always recommend the Michelin because they're so critical to the D driving experience.
    I have often thought these were the best alternative, although I have never tried them myself, I have heard they can be a bit noisey. The reason I thought them worth considering is they have a similar sidewall so the car should at least look correct.
    MB

    185/70R15 | Antique Tyres
    In this day and age the XVS tires do not provide the best grip, nor control, compared to more modern tires. I know, my 72 sedan takes part in classic car rallies on a regular basis. The problem with the XVS tires under really hard driving is that they do not let go progressively. Not a good thing when corning at the limit and sometimes beyond. I stopped using them ages ago. And, frankly, the Yokohama's I have on both of my cars look just fine. They are quite, smooth riding, have prodigious grip (in part to being wider) and extremely predicable handling characteristics. A good thing when chasing down 911's on back country secondary roads in California.

    The few owners I know here in the US that have the Vredestein's seem to happy with them. FWIW they are available in a 185/80x15 size - on the website listed. Just have to click on 'Vredestein' in the 'Tyres' column to pull up all the sizes they carry.

    There is a lot of myth surrounding the Michelin tires and Cits. At the time the cars were introduced they were the only thing you really wanted on the cars. But that was 50+ years ago. A lot has changed in the intervening years. Today there are more than just a few tires, from Michelin and others, that are superior to the XVS. The only problem is sizing. If one wants to throw a lot of money at the rims and is worried about 'originality' I, for one, am not getting into that discussion . OTOH if one uses their Cit(s) on a daily basis or they (it) are their only cars, as my 72 and 691/2 are for me, then the XVS is not a real option - even if they were as good as today's designs.

    Steve
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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Dear Steve, if I could just respond,

    "In this day and age the XVS tires do not provide the best grip, nor control, compared to more modern tires."

    Exactly right, as with all aspects associated with 50 year old technology, most things have improved. Let's face it the DS engine was way past its' lifespan 68.

    "
    The problem with the XVS tires under really hard driving is that they do not let go progressively. Not a good thing when corning at the limit and sometimes beyond."

    I have certainly felt the front end part ways with the bitumen in my daily driver in the wet. But, I'm not sure we're all trying to overtake Porsche 911's. One of the great pleasures of being a DS owner is that I don't feel like I'm in the same race as those in 911's. I feel qualified to say that having owned both Porsche 911's and DS's at the same time.

    This forum is a brilliant resource, particularly for DS owners, unfortunately some
    contributors feel compelled to present their opinion as gospel. Anyone can trawl the internet and copy and paste swathes of text from Citroen articles and pass it off as their own, in an attempt to make their particular opinion seem more credible.

    I'm not saying that you do this, but many of your contributions to this forum certainly read very similar to the advice of others, freely available on the internet. However, on this particular occasion you seem to have strong personal view of the "Tyres for DS" solution.

    "There is a lot of myth surrounding the Michelin tires and Cits."

    As I understand, Michelin entered in to extensive R&D with the DS and the asymmetrical XAS was the culmination of that R&D. Perhaps if you want to dispel any myths about the XVS you could explain exactly what the myths are?

    "But that was 50+ years ago. A lot has changed in the intervening years."

    Yep, plenty has changed in the last 50 years........ CD's replaced vinyl, digital technology has boomed, and yes the Subaru WRX is one of the most impressive cars to hit the streets, it would absolutely kill the DS in any comparison you would care to make, but, Steve, that's not really the point. Low profile tyres would no doubt make a type 35 Bugatti lap the Nurbrgring quicker, but, it kind of defeats the purpose. Where do you draw the line? If someone wants to rebuild a DS motor do you
    advise them to drop in a Subaru motor? Of course not. These cars are 50+ years old as you pointed out, much of their technology
    has long since been superseded. The idea of a 205 tyre on a DS is bad advice, you should know that.
    Imagine if all the DS's in the Reynolds Guide had 205 Yokohamas........ They would just look wrong!


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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    Dear Steve, if I could just respond,

    "In this day and age the XVS tires do not provide the best grip, nor control, compared to more modern tires."

    Exactly right, as with all aspects associated with 50 year old technology, most things have improved. Let's face it the DS engine was way past its' lifespan 68.

    "
    The problem with the XVS tires under really hard driving is that they do not let go progressively. Not a good thing when corning at the limit and sometimes beyond."

    I have certainly felt the front end part ways with the bitumen in my daily driver in the wet. But, I'm not sure we're all trying to overtake Porsche 911's. One of the great pleasures of being a DS owner is that I don't feel like I'm in the same race as those in 911's. I feel qualified to say that having owned both Porsche 911's and DS's at the same time.

    This forum is a brilliant resource, particularly for DS owners, unfortunately some
    contributors feel compelled to present their opinion as gospel. Anyone can trawl the internet and copy and paste swathes of text from Citroen articles and pass it off as their own, in an attempt to make their particular opinion seem more credible.

    I'm not saying that you do this, but many of your contributions to this forum certainly read very similar to the advice of others, freely available on the internet. However, on this particular occasion you seem to have strong personal view of the "Tyres for DS" solution.

    "There is a lot of myth surrounding the Michelin tires and Cits."

    As I understand, Michelin entered in to extensive R&D with the DS and the asymmetrical XAS was the culmination of that R&D. Perhaps if you want to dispel any myths about the XVS you could explain exactly what the myths are?

    "But that was 50+ years ago. A lot has changed in the intervening years."

    Yep, plenty has changed in the last 50 years........ CD's replaced vinyl, digital technology has boomed, and yes the Subaru WRX is one of the most impressive cars to hit the streets, it would absolutely kill the DS in any comparison you would care to make, but, Steve, that's not really the point. Low profile tyres would no doubt make a type 35 Bugatti lap the Nurbrgring quicker, but, it kind of defeats the purpose. Where do you draw the line? If someone wants to rebuild a DS motor do you
    advise them to drop in a Subaru motor? Of course not. These cars are 50+ years old as you pointed out, much of their technology
    has long since been superseded. The idea of a 205 tyre on a DS is bad advice, you should know that.
    Imagine if all the DS's in the Reynolds Guide had 205 Yokohamas........ They would just look wrong!


    Vote 1
    Michelin for Citroen.
    Last edited by richo; 8th January 2014 at 12:38 AM. Reason: brevity
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    hi guys
    thanks for the in detailed information and spirited comments. those of you who have seen my other contributions to this forum would appreciate that i do believe in originality. so i am also torn to go the cheaper option. but since my last full set of 5, the XVS's have doubled at least, in price.
    i have been using the car as a daily driver and really enjoying the experience once again, instead of leaving it for special days.but it was suggested to me by a reliable source that there are other options for a new set of rubber. i have sent an email to stucky in melbourne and will also get a price from UK and see how far the difference is form the XVS's. really appreciate the feedback.

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    The Hankook option seems to be the one most owners end up going with (apparently happily) when they prefer not to pay for classic Michelin. Some of these cars are driven regularly, both in town and interstate, so they are a pragmatic choice for many.
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    If you have to ask the price of tyres you shouldn't be a guardian of a automobile treasure like the DS.
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    Dear Steve, if I could just respond,

    "In this day and age the XVS tires do not provide the best grip, nor control, compared to more modern tires."

    Exactly right, as with all aspects associated with 50 year old technology, most things have improved. Let's face it the DS engine was way past its' lifespan 68.

    "
    The problem with the XVS tires under really hard driving is that they do not let go progressively. Not a good thing when corning at the limit and sometimes beyond."

    I have certainly felt the front end part ways with the bitumen in my daily driver in the wet. But, I'm not sure we're all trying to overtake Porsche 911's. One of the great pleasures of being a DS owner is that I don't feel like I'm in the same race as those in 911's. I feel qualified to say that having owned both Porsche 911's and DS's at the same time.

    This forum is a brilliant resource, particularly for DS owners, unfortunately some
    contributors feel compelled to present their opinion as gospel. Anyone can trawl the internet and copy and paste swathes of text from Citroen articles and pass it off as their own, in an attempt to make their particular opinion seem more credible.

    I'm not saying that you do this, but many of your contributions to this forum certainly read very similar to the advice of others, freely available on the internet. However, on this particular occasion you seem to have strong personal view of the "Tyres for DS" solution.

    "There is a lot of myth surrounding the Michelin tires and Cits."

    As I understand, Michelin entered in to extensive R&D with the DS and the asymmetrical XAS was the culmination of that R&D. Perhaps if you want to dispel any myths about the XVS you could explain exactly what the myths are?

    "But that was 50+ years ago. A lot has changed in the intervening years."

    Yep, plenty has changed in the last 50 years........ CD's replaced vinyl, digital technology has boomed, and yes the Subaru WRX is one of the most impressive cars to hit the streets, it would absolutely kill the DS in any comparison you would care to make, but, Steve, that's not really the point. Low profile tyres would no doubt make a type 35 Bugatti lap the Nurbrgring quicker, but, it kind of defeats the purpose. Where do you draw the line? If someone wants to rebuild a DS motor do you
    advise them to drop in a Subaru motor? Of course not. These cars are 50+ years old as you pointed out, much of their technology
    has long since been superseded. The idea of a 205 tyre on a DS is bad advice, you should know that.
    Imagine if all the DS's in the Reynolds Guide had 205 Yokohamas........ They would just look wrong!



    As I said am not going to get involved with an 'ascetics' discussion but since you keep bringing it up I will just say this. FWIW the only time the owner/driver is going to see the tires is when the car is parked After a few hours sitting, for the vast majority of D's, one can barely see the front or rear of the tires anyway. I have driven D's exclusively since 1963. Personally I prefer the look of a wider tire on the later cars and I really like the 'look' of the Yokohama Ascend' as mounted on both my sedan and safari.

    As to the 205/70's on a D. In actual fact the factory started going in that direction after the introduction of the SM. D rims were widen by 1/2" to readily accept a wider tire. I can only spectuate as to why they did not - though I suspect it may have had to do with front wheel clearance at full lock. Something that would have either required reducing the lock angle or a redesign of the front fenders.

    If you have never driven a D on 205/70's you do not know what you have been missing. The SM uses the exact same suspension components as a DS - the only difference being that both drive shafts are of equal length and the arms are mounted forward of the drive shafts - not aft. That was done to improve stability under braking. SM owners would never even dream of putting 185/80 tires on their car - and neither did the factory.

    When I talk about the 'myth' of Michelin and D's what I am referring to - and I would have though those who have owned the cars for any length of time knew this - is that at the introduction in 56 the D needed the new construction Michelin had developed because of the suspension geometry of the cars. The original X-Stop, while introduced a bit before the D, was indeed the only tire available at the time that would not compromise the car's handling characteristics. However once the 'cat was out of the bag' so to speak other tire manufactures quickly adopted Michelin's technology - though in some cases not nearly as well.

    The real point here is that if one wants to spend lots of money for 'originality' that is fine. OTOH if you want excellent riding and handling tires for a D, there are more than a few choices out there that don't have the Michelin trademark on them and do not cost a couple of months wages in the bargin. And Michelin, for all of their innovations has made their fair share of real 'duds' and has had more than a couple of recalls for QC problems.

    Steve

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    Garry,

    The DS is not a 'treasure' - though it was an innovation when introduced. But they are/were meant to be driven. If one wants to put theirs in a glass case - fine. Between my two, the mileage covered since new is a bit over 800,000 miles. They are diffidently not 'original' - those parts and original designs that were problematic have been changed to make them both far more reliable. To the 'purist' out there that most likely boarders on being sacrilegious. Don't care - I want my cars to be able to take a 7,000 mile trip, at the drop of a hat, with nothing more in the trunk than a few simple tools.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    Garry,

    The DS is not a 'treasure' - though it was an innovation when introduced. But they are/were meant to be driven. If one wants to put theirs in a glass case - fine. Between my two, the mileage covered since new is a bit over 800,000 miles. They are diffidently not 'original' - those parts and original designs that were problematic have been changed to make them both far more reliable. To the 'purist' out there that most likely boarders on being sacrilegious. Don't care - I want my cars to be able to take a 7,000 mile trip, at the drop of a hat, with nothing more in the trunk than a few simple tools.

    Steve,

    You have reminded me of an ex colleague that bought a 3 year old 3 series BMW 2500(?) Coupe some years back and was skiting as to how spotless the Bm was. Low mileage, back seats never sat in, no evidence of boot ever being used / opened, etc, etc.

    My comment was - he (the previous owner) certainly enjoyed using his car I think not! But then, is that not typical of a BMW owner that their BM is for show only.

    It was certainly the case with that ex colleague - everybody new it / felt it. Yes, I must agree that there are exception to this rule, but boy there are many BMWs (and other German marques) bought just for that reason only.

    I have no problem with show pieces but the motor car was meant to be driven and the D is no exception - quite the contrary; drive it like its stolen. I enjoy driving mine no different to modern cars.

    And when the tyres wear out, nothing wrong with replacing them with what ever suits your needs and finances. The Audi Quattro gets $500 tyres because it is capable of 200 + KPH. Has not gone past that yet but close to it.

    What the D will get when the time comes - who knows. At the moment it has a relatively new set of Hanook's so they are not about to be changed for originality's sake.

    John

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    My memory goes back longer than I care to remember. In these parts the local Michelin distributors were quite hopeless at supply and stocking. If one wanted Xs ( 400mm size ) they only had XAs, If one wanted XAx they only had XVS. I have to agree that Michelin have produced a few duds in their time...Thai manufactured XZX were no better than garden variety products....and Pirelli from my experience had similar patchy products...P77s ( that should have been used as fenders around some Brazilian ferry ) , were exchanged by the local distributor for P5s that were supposedly the ant's pants and fitted as standard fitment to Daimler Sovereigns at the time were equally non round, and they replaced them with Spanish P6s that were absolutely marvellous .. later we bought some Pirelli Dragons .. horriblly coarse and noisy. Back in the days when Ds were new we did have some choice in 185X380 size, One manufacturer was Kleber ( they had delamination problems ), and Uniroyal ... purely on an availability basis I found the Uniroyals cost effective and long lasting. Between Xas and XVS, the Xas was H rated, the XVS was V rated....higher rating = less tread life. If investing big $$$ look at the XVS +P as shown in the above link from UFO .. the P refers to a wide pointed triangular band on the outer wall for gutter scrape protection.

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    Fellow Frogger! lamoor's Avatar
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    Default Tyres for DS

    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    If you have to ask the price of tyres you shouldn't be a guardian of a automobile treasure like the DS.
    Hi Jerry
    point taken, and i agree, a serious considerable amount of time and money has been spent on my DS, this is not just about the money, but i am just wanting to explore the possible options available. it is good to see that this has also sparked a good discussion. i appreciate your comments.

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    Default I'm happy.

    Lamoor,
    I spent some time asking myself the same questions. For the 68 I ended up going for the XAS's, previously I had chosen the XVS's. But, at the last minute I went with the earlier tyres, because they were designed specifically for the car. They arrived from Longstone with inner tubes, which was a first for me. I couldn't be happier, I know they cost more, but it was a relatively easy way to achieve a great result in the scheme of things.
    3 days ago I had this same conversation with a friend who was struggling with the $8,000.00 price tag for the original Michelins for a 365 Ferrari BB. In the end it was an easy decision if not a little painful to his hip pocket. I guess the point is, it's all relative, but it made the XAS's seem like very good value.

    Good luck, I hope you get the result your after.

    P.S. that is not a scrape on the bottom of the guard.... got a shock when I saw the pic upload, it was just some cutting compound.

    MB
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tyres for ds-xas.jpg  

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    Not wanting to cut anyone else's grass, but some of the ethical concerns of choosing the correct equipment for vintage vehicles where one should be seen as a mere custodian has recently been considered here:
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/toa...-my-mower.html
    addo, mberry and GreenBlood like this.

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    Default Tyres for ds

    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    Lamoor,
    I spent some time asking myself the same questions. For the 68 I ended up going for the XAS's, previously I had chosen the XVS's. But, at the last minute I went with the earlier tyres, because they were designed specifically for the car. They arrived from Longstone with inner tubes, which was a first for me. I couldn't be happier, I know they cost more, but it was a relatively easy way to achieve a great result in the scheme of things.
    3 days ago I had this same conversation with a friend who was struggling with the $8,000.00 price tag for the original Michelins for a 365 Ferrari BB. In the end it was an easy decision if not a little painful to his hip pocket. I guess the point is, it's all relative, but it made the XAS's seem like very good value.

    Good luck, I hope you get the result your after.

    P.S. that is not a scrape on the bottom of the guard.... got a shock when I saw the pic upload, it was just some cutting compound.

    MB
    looks v cool cant wait to se the end result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    I ended up going for the XAS's,
    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    got a shock when I saw the pic upload
    Michael,

    you weren't using that bench grinder to true up out-of-round XASs, were you?

    Roger

    PS more seriously, I went with a set of XAS rather than XVS for the same reason as you

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAJEA View Post
    Steve,

    You have reminded me of an ex colleague that bought a 3 year old 3 series BMW 2500(?) Coupe some years back and was skiting as to how spotless the Bm was. Low mileage, back seats never sat in, no evidence of boot ever being used / opened, etc, etc.

    My comment was - he (the previous owner) certainly enjoyed using his car I think not! But then, is that not typical of a BMW owner that their BM is for show only.

    It was certainly the case with that ex colleague - everybody new it / felt it. Yes, I must agree that there are exception to this rule, but boy there are many BMWs (and other German marques) bought just for that reason only.

    I have no problem with show pieces but the motor car was meant to be driven and the D is no exception - quite the contrary; drive it like its stolen. I enjoy driving mine no different to modern cars.

    And when the tyres wear out, nothing wrong with replacing them with what ever suits your needs and finances. The Audi Quattro gets $500 tyres because it is capable of 200 + KPH. Has not gone past that yet but close to it.

    What the D will get when the time comes - who knows. At the moment it has a relatively new set of Hanook's so they are not about to be changed for originality's sake.

    John
    Hi John,

    Seems we are of quite similar minds sets . OTOH given the relatively few number of Cits sold in the USA over the years driving one 'like it was stolen' was/is not a really good idea........As I mentioned to a California Highway Patrol Officer some time ago after he remarked about my 72 Sedan as I was getting into it at the local post office - 'Boy you don't see many of those around". I just laughed and told him that there was one thing one did not do in a Citroen in the USA. He asked what. I said quite simply - 'Don't rob a bank in one'. It took him a few minutes to stop laughing.

    Steve

  23. #23
    UFO
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    Interestingly the Traction Avant was favoured by criminals in Europe when it was current as its handling ability left many other cars for dead.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    Interestingly the Traction Avant was favoured by criminals in Europe when it was current as its handling ability left many other cars for dead.
    Craig - has nothing to do with handling/braking etc - Think USA, Detroit car styling and the DS's shape...........Many years ago I few into SFO from NY on a late night arrival. My 72 DSpecial was parked in the long term parking (outlying parking). I was quite tired. Got into the parking lot van and the driver asked me where I was parked. Instead of searching through my ticket stubs to find section and space number I just said, simply, 'Look for the weirdest looking car you have seen driving around' - the driver turned and looked at me, smiled, and said she knew exactly where my car was.

    Steve

  25. #25
    UFO
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    And a crim would never use a DS as a get away - especially if they were silly enough to turn it off.
    Craig K
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