DS engine restoration
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Thread: DS engine restoration

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! IE23's Avatar
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    Default DS engine restoration

    I'd like to have the DS engine refurbished. The compression is down slightly and there is now a small amount of cross oil - water contamination. I'd like to have the piston sleeves and rings done as a minimum, plus head gasket of course.

    I can't do this myself so the big question is who do I entrust to do this work and how far do I go? Cost of course is a consideration. What sort of budget should I allow?

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    What other parts should be reconditioned if the engine comes out? The steering rack boot is torn so I was thinking to have the rack reconditioned and new clutch at the same time. The gear box seems fine and not noisy. The CV joints were replaced only recently.
    DS engine restoration-engine-bay.jpg
    By way of back ground, Nick of Car of France has done all the servicing on this car continuously for the past 20 years, with one or two exceptions when the original owner of Citro Motors, Bruno and his mechanic Colin did some work. The entire car is in honest low kms original condition. Apart from some body work completed by Heka;
    DS engine restoration-body-work-sept06.jpgDS engine restoration-roof-3.jpg


    Adrian

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  2. #2
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IE23 View Post
    I'd like to have the DS engine refurbished. The compression is down slightly and there is now a small amount of cross oil - water contamination. I'd like to have the piston sleeves and rings done as a minimum, plus head gasket of course.

    I can't do this myself so the big question is who do I entrust to do this work and how far do I go? Cost of course is a consideration. What sort of budget should I allow?

    What other parts should be reconditioned if the engine comes out? The steering rack boot is torn so I was thinking to have the rack reconditioned and new clutch at the same time. The gear box seems fine and not noisy. The CV joints were replaced only recently.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    By way of back ground, Nick of Car of France has done all the servicing on this car continuously for the past 20 years, with one or two exceptions when the original owner of Citro Motors, Bruno and his mechanic Colin did some work. The entire car is in honest low kms original condition. Apart from some body work completed by Heka;
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I would recommend a check of the timing gears and chain for wear. Engine out is the time to do that replacement if necessary. I would also carefully inspect the motor mounts. If your rack is working OK, no leaks, feels right, others might chime in but I would do just the boots. Checking the clutch is a very good idea. Now might be the time for a cable if it hasn't been done for a few years, or looks frayed on inspection. Also, since it's out, check the radiator for blockages. One last thing is the oil pressure sender. If it looks weepy at all- and I do mean at all- replace it. These are notorious for sudden catastrophic failure once they start leaking.
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    I have long wondered about the piston/sleeve sets sold by vendors like Franzose, as they don't rate them too highly in their own quality scoring. Gives me a wholly unqualified impression they don't last well.

    Yet one doesn't see good quality 20 or 40 thou over pistons/rings offered as an alternative.

  4. #4
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    I have long wondered about the piston/sleeve sets sold by vendors like Franzose, as they don't rate them too highly in their own quality scoring. Gives me a wholly unqualified impression they don't last well.

    Yet one doesn't see good quality 20 or 40 thou over pistons/rings offered as an alternative.
    Area 52 might cough up a set, though I'm not positive. Daffy will know. Short of that, you might be able to get rings, just so long as the pistons check out. Something in my foggy mind tells me that certain Toyota pistons will fit.
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    Adrian,

    How many miles on the engine and what model?

    In addition to the parts already mentioned:

    1) Main and rod bearings and journals should be checked for clearance and renewed if worn or grooved

    2) Cam/cam followers/push rods. Cam should be inspected for profile and reground if needed. Cam followers should be smooth on the cam contact end, no pits or even hint of pits. Cam bearings in the block should be check for diameter. Normally not a problem but best to check anyway.

    Piston/rings. My understanding is that the sets currently being supplied by Parts Industries are purchased from the company in France that supplied them to the factory. OTOH if the piston to barrel clearance is OK and the ring lans are not spread (typical problem unfortunately) you can have the barrels honed and just re-ring the engine. If lans are spread there are scraper and compression rings for some models of Toyota pickup trucks that are available in 2.5 and 3.0mm widths. However they will only fit DX and DX2 (90mm dia piston) engines. Is what I did to my 21 11 years (138,000 miles) ago - machined out the grooves to 3 mm. Worked like a charm. There may be rings from another make that will fit the 93.5mm piston in the DX3/4/5 engines. Never bothered to look.

    Am sure you will have more questions as you get into this

    Good luck,

    Steve

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    Adrian,

    DUH - If I had bothered to look at your AussieFrog 'handle' I would have noted that you have an IE23
    Oh well - forget the Toyota route. Will do a bit of hunting and get the name of the factory in France that supplied Citroen with pistons/liners.

    Steve

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    Adrian,
    No idea who to recommend in Melbourne, I'm sure local knowledge will set you on the right path

    Lance Collins of DS Motors in Brisbane will tell you you will spend nearly as much attending to ancillaries as the removal recondition and re-fit of the motor. That is the likes of water pump, radiator, and all cooling hoses, belts, starter motor and running new cables. Alternator? HP pump? Engine mounts? Steering rack etc. and a bunch of bits and pieces associated with your fuel injection. He insists on re-newing the cooling side of things the rest will be assessed and reconditioned if required after consultation.

    Most of this work is of course much more accessible with the motor removed and can save big dollars down the track when not if they are required.

    Looks like you have a really nice original car, yours is one of the few I have seen with the Chausson logo intact stenciled onto the header tank, don't be tempted to re-paint if you get into smartening things up under the bonnet

    Cheers
    Chris
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    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    mmmmmm.........no solenoid ( centre of my preoccupations )on positive terminal of battery, yet its fuel injected.....Please Explain
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    The problems are once you start you will potentially find lots of wear, and then replacement, and if you're getting it done by a pro then the bill is going to look slightly different! I've forked out over 5G for the rebuild on my engine, thats just parts btw, I have a nice NOS head on the way though. And there's no point in skimping, an engine out is an effort so sort everything in one hit.
    I'd be isolating the 'problem' first before you leap in.
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  10. #10
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    mmmmmm.........no solenoid ( centre of my preoccupations )on positive terminal of battery, yet its fuel injected.....Please Explain
    Hi Phil-
    OK- more info!!

    The battery mount solenoid depended on what transmission you have. If I am correct, fuel injection had nothing to do with that, since EFI was installed much as an accessory, not as an integral part of the car. Well, electrically, anyway.

    The cars that got solenoids were all of them up to 1969. In 1970, it was split into manual trans cars, and non-manual trans cars.

    The manual trans cars got a solenoid mounted directly to the starter only, and received a battery positive input to trip that solenoid- much as virtually every car from the late 50's. This explains the lack of a battery mount solenoid. This style of solenoid requires the switch you have in your car, since there is no shift wand and so no remote start switch as on a Citromatic. In the case of the manual only, the ignition switch receives battery input on the white sleeved wire from the headlight switch, and sends power out the brown sleeved wire, and on towards the starter.

    For the automatics and the Citromatics, they have the battery mount solenoid. The Citromatics (BVH in case somebody in the audience doesn't know) retained the start function from the shift wand throughout their entire run. Electrically, both the BVH and BVA cars are similar, the automatics needing the neutral safety switch in line between the solenoid and the ignition switch. The style of starter was the same as for the manuals (I don't know if the tooth count on the pinions were different between the models). The solenoid operated as we established on your car and sent power to a copper bar shunt that powered both the starter motor and a solenoid mounted on the starter. I don't know why Citroen did this- it may have been an attempt to keep from stocking several different starters for the same motor group.

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    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    Thanks HotRod, in order not to hijack this thread, I have to ask you a few more questions back to my original thread.
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    The pistons and liners can be changed without pulling the lump out of the car. I have done it countless times.

    Paint the rack and install the new boots. Do not disturb the innards of the rack if it is working correctly and is not leaking.

    Speak to Nick and see what he has to say. A good, long term service agent who appreciates these cars is an invaluable asset.

    Via the aussiefrogs App

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    When I had the Prestige's motor rebuilt in 2006 the best thing that was done was a new radiator core. That and the block thoroughly descaled whilst it was pulled done to just that. The rebuilt motor has now done 200k and the cooling system has been working 100% perfect since the rebuild. No point in risking all your money on a less than perfect cooling system. The goal should be to return the motor to just out of the factory in every way and that is one area often overlooked.
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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Many experts suggest ceramic coating the exhaust manifold before refitting to reduce under bonnet temperatures and firewall heat soak.

    If a Pallas it is likely that the firewall insulation is past it's best and could be upgraded too.
    Michael
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    Hi
    I went for piece of mind and hoping never to have to pull the engine out again. Denton Christie in Sydney did a complete rebuild on my D engine, i sourced a replacement head as the original was corroded, sourced replacement liners and pistons from France, and asked him to check and repair / replace as necessary. Timing chain was done, block painted etc, new starter, mounts, water pump, camshaft bearing and more.
    The engine is the 'deepest' thing in the engine bay, everything else can be got at without removing the engine. So consider the steering rack , radiator etc separately. However a well performing cooling system is priceless
    BF
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    Many experts suggest ceramic coating the exhaust manifold before refitting to reduce under bonnet temperatures and firewall heat soak.

    If a Pallas it is likely that the firewall insulation is past it's best and could be upgraded too.

    In a D, inside ceramic coating of the exhaust headers might improve gas flow to some extent, but an exterior coatings only real benefit is going to be cosmetic and possible reduction of surface corrosion. Those coatings are only on the order of 0.5 to 1.0mm in thickness. Typically do not have a lot of thermal insulation properties. The vast, vast majority of heat in a D engine bay comes from the radiator and the fact that the engine compartment is mostly shielded underneath.

    As you noted in a Pallas the fiber insulation behind the Al heat shields is most likely way past its prime. There are a number of good to excellent materials available to replace the factory material.

    Steve

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    With the engine out... Why not consider some acoustic and thermal protection up against the firewall?


    Paul in Canberra

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    Quote Originally Posted by pajamas View Post
    With the engine out... Why not consider some acoustic and thermal protection up against the firewall?
    One of the major differences between a DS and the Pallas versions was the addition of around 20 kilos of insulation - most of it in passenger compartment and the addition of the Al heat shields mounted to the engine side of the firewall (bulkhead). As Michaelr pointed out the engine compartment insulating fiber mat (attached to the back side of the Al shields) is likely deteriorated. Easy to put a more modern replacement in its place.

    The other major source of heat intrusion in a D is that in all likely hood most of the rubber grommets and plugs are compromised. Easy to find and replace when the engine is out. The other major source of heat is the air/heat ventilation system.

    Over time the air flaps controlled by the cables from inside the car will fail to close completely as well as loose their felt surrounds allowing hot air to seep by.

    The flexible air ducts internal insulation deteriorates - or have been replaced by non-insulated tubing.

    The hot water control valve starts leaking internally - this is a very common problem. So any air entering via left side air duct is heated.

    And last but not lease, is that the D series even under the best of conditions, were poorly insulated to start with OTOH one can roll down the windows at 85+mph and not get buffeted by hurricane force winds......

    Steve
    Last edited by Citroenfan; 6th January 2014 at 03:54 PM.

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