starter battery solenoid on DS23IE.....Hotrodelectric, where are youuuuuu!!!!!!!!!
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Thread: starter battery solenoid on DS23IE.....Hotrodelectric, where are youuuuuu!!!!!!!!!

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    Default starter battery solenoid on DS23IE.....Hotrodelectric, where are youuuuuu!!!!!!!!!

    As the more educated amongst you will know, the positive battery terminal on the DS23IE is equipped with a small solenoid and a push button from where you can trigger the starter motor. I have had to replace that fitting along with a new coil. Everything in place but cannot find a wire going from dash board key to the battery solenoid.
    Hence the question: because I've noticed the two wires coming off the solenoid are live with 12 volts, is it just a matter of bridging them ie installing a "START" button on the dash and connecting the two live wires to fire the starter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    As the more educated amongst you will know, the positive battery terminal on the DS23IE is equipped with a small solenoid and a push button from where you can trigger the starter motor. I have had to replace that fitting along with a new coil. Everything in place but cannot find a wire going from dash board key to the battery solenoid.
    Hence the question: because I've noticed the two wires coming off the solenoid are live with 12 volts, is it just a matter of bridging them ie installing a "START" button on the dash and connecting the two live wires to fire the starter?
    OK Phil- first things first. BREATHE!!

    I had to go do some shopping with my dad. I would rather be trying to tame a drop bear.

    On your key switch, if you have the correct one, there will be a total of 8 wires. 6 of them are in the white plastic connector. The two you need are of the 'flying' sort, marked in white and brown. The brown one goes to the start switch (or to ground- I'm not positive how that works on the Automatics), But anyway, that wire paths off towards ground. The white wire is out to the solenoid. The solenoid end of that wire is marked in red, and is usually paired with the battery charge wire.

    The reproduction solenoid markings are wrong. The yellow wire/green mark should be your start wire. Test briefly, by momentarily touching the wire to battery ground. You should get action from the starter. Do not connect the two live wires- both have different functions.

    Both wires will look like 12v positive because one of them is for the charge circuit, and the other you are running 12 volts through the solenoid coil. You need 12v in (positive) and 12v out (negative) to get the magnetism required in closing the daisy wheel at the top of the solenoid and sending power to the starter. Positive is supplied by the battery post. Negative is supplied by the start wire.
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    Ouch!!!
    And to think that I thought it would be easy!
    What scares the $4!7 out of me is blowing up the computer or an electrical fire. Problem is this computer works a treat compared to horror stories I've heard from people with IE, also they are VERY expansive to replace.....
    Anyways, I'm gonna have to bite the bullit I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    OK Phil- first things first. BREATHE!!

    I had to go do some shopping with my dad. I would rather be trying to tame a drop bear.

    On your key switch, if you have the correct one, there will be a total of 8 wires. 6 of them are in the white plastic connector. The two you need are of the 'flying' sort, marked in white and brown. The brown one goes to the start switch (or to ground- I'm not positive how that works on the Automatics), But anyway, that wire paths off towards ground. The white wire is out to the solenoid. The solenoid end of that wire is marked in red, and is usually paired with the battery charge wire.

    The reproduction solenoid markings are wrong. The yellow wire/green mark should be your start wire. Test briefly, by momentarily touching the wire to battery ground. You should get action from the starter. Do not connect the two live wires- both have different functions.

    Both wires will look like 12v positive because one of them is for the charge circuit, and the other you are running 12 volts through the solenoid coil. You need 12v in (positive) and 12v out (negative) to get the magnetism required in closing the daisy wheel at the top of the solenoid and sending power to the starter. Positive is supplied by the battery post. Negative is supplied by the start wire.
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    Why would there be a wiring problem if you are simply replacing what is there?
    If you are worried about the ECU, lift the carpet, remove the cover plate and disconnect it until you have it turning over.

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    David,
    There isn't a wiring problem as such, I was only ever able to start the car from the solenoid since I've got it. I have never known were the wire from the key is although I can turn the ignition "on",but the next turn of the key doesn't crank the engine.
    Starts fine with the solenoid, so was thinking of extending this with a "start" button to dashboard. How could I do that? Hotrodelectric has suggested looking at the wires at the key, but I can't even do that as I have the full length underdash aircon plastic thingy in the way! .
    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Why would there be a wiring problem if you are simply replacing what is there?
    If you are worried about the ECU, lift the carpet, remove the cover plate and disconnect it until you have it turning over.
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    David,
    There isn't a wiring problem as such, I was only ever able to start the car from the solenoid since I've got it. I have never known were the wire from the key is although I can turn the ignition "on",but the next turn of the key doesn't crank the engine.
    Starts fine with the solenoid, so was thinking of extending this with a "start" button to dashboard. .
    I thought the start switch was at the gear lever?



    Cheers
    Chris
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails starter battery solenoid on DS23IE.....Hotrodelectric, where are youuuuuu!!!!!!!!!-ds-bw-start-control.jpg  
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

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    G'day Chris,

    You'll note that although the diagram is similar to the
    'hydraulique", the borg warner DS switch is at "the anti theft device" as noted in the last line of the picture you posted. It is actually a key start on the left of the steering wheel just above the aircon. And whilst I can turn the key to the right to turn on the ignition, when I turn further right, nothing happens although it should crank then.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    I thought the start switch was at the gear lever?



    Cheers
    Chris
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    G'day Chris,

    You'll note that although the diagram is similar to the
    'hydraulique", the borg warner DS switch is at "the anti theft device" as noted in the last line of the picture you posted. It is actually a key start on the left of the steering wheel just above the aircon. And whilst I can turn the key to the right to turn on the ignition, when I turn further right, nothing happens although it should crank then.
    Ahha, I should have read the footnote.

    You won't need to remove your aircon duct to investigate. You can get to the ignition switch from the instrument binnacle, as Bill has pointed out the wires should be easily identified - you may be lucky and find that one has come adrift.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    I hadn't thought of that. Although am not so sure as the key is on the left side , and somehow further away than the standard configuration. But I'm on my way to the shed to check it out.
    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post

    You can get to the ignition switch from the instrument binnacle.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    Yes, that's the diagram. You need to make sure the start inhibitor (aka Neutral Safety) switch #69 on the gearbox is operating correctly and connected. Do the reversing lights 64 and 65 work? These go via the same switch as wires Mv and J, energised when the ignition is on and reverse is selected. If they work, the switch is at least moving. In P and N, can you you measure near 0 Ohms across the two R terminals at the switch? If that works, you need to track back 16(Solenoid) > 69(Switch) > 47(Key) > 15(Volt reg) to find out whether it goes to earth with 47 in the start position. Being an IE car, there is probably another wire running from the starter solenoid terminal to the third (impulse) relay for the EFI, or to a shunt if the car is late enough to have only two relays.
    Last edited by David S; 24th December 2013 at 07:43 PM.

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    Excellent, I CAN get to the ignition wires through the binnacle! Not so accessible but I can see no disturbances in there and all the multi coloured wires including 1 white and 1 brown as Hotrod mentioned. So now to see if I can trace them on the engine side....
    Also I don't see a white plastic connector, everything is black....different year?
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    If you pull the instrument cluster out, you will have even better access to it. The colours typically refer to tags on the wire ends, not necessarily the wire itself. The tags fade. It's not Lucas .. sadly!
    Last edited by David S; 24th December 2013 at 07:50 PM.

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    Just when I thought I was making headways....someone at some stage must've rewired the lot . So i've got a brown wire with white tag and white wire with brown tag...But when they get into the engine compartment they're all...black
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    Just when I thought I was making headways....someone at some stage must've rewired the lot . So i've got a brown wire with white tag and white wire with brown tag...But when they get into the engine compartment they're all...black
    Sounds correct, don't worry about the wire colour only the coloured sleeves. The wires in the engine bay are mostly black they are not a direct single wire all the way through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric
    On your key switch, if you have the correct one, there will be a total of 8 wires. 6 of them are in the white plastic connector. The two you need are of the 'flying' sort, marked in white and brown. The brown one goes to the start switch (or to ground- I'm not positive how that works on the Automatics), But anyway, that wire paths off towards ground. The white wire is out to the solenoid. The solenoid end of that wire is marked in red, and is usually paired with the battery charge wire.
    Do the tests David has suggested, do your reverse lights work? Etc.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    I had a similar problem, I could turn on the ignition and dash lights etc came on but turning the key further nothing happened. Problem was that there was no earth wire coming from the voltage regulator. Put one in and happy days all working. Hope this helps.

    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    David,
    There isn't a wiring problem as such, I was only ever able to start the car from the solenoid since I've got it. I have never known were the wire from the key is although I can turn the ignition "on",but the next turn of the key doesn't crank the engine.
    Starts fine with the solenoid, so was thinking of extending this with a "start" button to dashboard. How could I do that? Hotrodelectric has suggested looking at the wires at the key, but I can't even do that as I have the full length underdash aircon plastic thingy in the way! .
    You don't even need to drop the A/C suitcase. There's nothing to look at under the dash except for an expanse of dash shelf. What you would need to do is pull the instrument cluster C.A.R.E.F.U.L.L.Y.- those corners are easy to break off the plastic- and you would probably need a flashlight to see the two 'flying' leads for the ignition switch. From there you should be able to trace out what goes where for the park/neutral switch. I see Chris supplied an Automatic diagram for the start circuit.

    Chris- no. The start switch is as for the manual cars- on the ignition switch. The manual cars however would be a positive output. The Automatics apparently are as the Citromatics- a negative output.

    OK. Let's have a go at this. Referencing the diagram:

    As I pointed out earlier, your ignition switch will have 8 wires. You need the brown and the white ones- these are your start wires. The brown one is grounded by way of the voltage regulator. How this works is the regulator has a separate circuit for the charge lamp. This lamp is always grounded until the motor is started and running. The ground is taken away, and the light goes off. The ground- when the light is on- also supplies the ground circuit for the start switch. This is what makes up the anti-repeat circuit for starter safety. No ground = no accidental re engaging the starter. If you do not have the stock regulator for whatever reason, you need to make a ground for this wire and permanently attach it to a solid grounding point- the main ground stud, for example. If you do this though, the anti-repeat feature goes away and you have to take care not to re engage the starter when the motor is running. Ring gears are quite expensive and starters are a stone bitch to replace.

    The white wire is the other side of the switch. Once you turn the key to 'start', the white wire connects to the brown, providing a ground to the starter solenoid. Now, looking at the diagram, start at the key pictogram, and you see where MR and BC are. MR is the ground in from the regulator. BC is the wire out to the solenoid. A multimeter will be useful here, because you'll have three red wires to sort. We already know about the one directly on the solenoid, that one is yellow with a green color sleeve. The one you want to find is the one that comes from the start switch- the one that is white. Set your meter to either ohms or signal beep, connect it to the white end, and then touch the three red ends. Whichever one beeps is the one from the start switch. Keep that one separated with the yellow wire. The other two red sleeved wires are from the neutral safety switch.

    From what I can see (the manuals aren't very clear) the NSS will be on the 'driver side' (for you) of the transmission, near the top. It looks as though it's screwed in from beneath what would be the top cover on a 4 speed box. There should be 4 wires coming from it- two of these are your reversing lamps, yellow and mauve (probably more a mud color by now) which you don't need to fool with now. You want the two red ones. Those two wind their way up to the start solenoid, and are the two that did not beep when you checked the wires. I'm not positive- it's entirely possible this is a small separate harness consisting of just the two wires, and you won't need to check which wire comes from the start switch.

    Anyway, check to see if the red sleeved wires are connected at the NSS. Then, connect male to female, and male to female at the solenoid.

    If you've checked everything through, that should complete the start circuit. Now, I have a caveat: I don't know how those solenoids are constructed. Remove the plastic top cover, and look for the solder joint at the top copper plate. The charge circuit feed is that wire directly under it. I think that is the red wire. The other one is the start wire- the yellow one.

    Basically, this system is the same for the Citromatics in that a negative signal is used to start the car. Instead of the gear lever used to start, a manual shift switch is used. Another switch- the neutral safety switch- is merely inserted in between the start switch and the solenoid to prevent starting in any other gear except park and neutral. This switch can be bypassed if necessary, but I don't recommend it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    Excellent, I CAN get to the ignition wires through the binnacle! Not so accessible but I can see no disturbances in there and all the multi coloured wires including 1 white and 1 brown as Hotrod mentioned. So now to see if I can trace them on the engine side....
    Also I don't see a white plastic connector, everything is black....different year?
    No- a feature I had forgotten about. We didn't get those switches. The type you have is 4mm pins on the back and a round, black plug. It functions the same as the white plug, just shaped a different way.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Bill,

    Can you describe what a "flying"wire looks like please as everything I see in there seems pretty well rigged up and coming from the same area. As I was saying earlier I have a brown wire with white tag and a white wire with brown tag, so I just want to verify that when you say white you mean tag - not wire.
    Also regarding the key, I can indeed turn it to start once but not twice, so can I deduct from that that it is grounded properly?.
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBullet View Post
    I had a similar problem, I could turn on the ignition and dash lights etc came on but turning the key further nothing happened. Problem was that there was no earth wire coming from the voltage regulator. Put one in and happy days all working. Hope this helps.

    Ed
    Excellent point, Ed. It really becomes a problem when the original Paris Rhone or Ducellier alternator is changed out for an internal regulator alternator, like an Iskra or Bosch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    Bill,

    Can you describe what a "flying"wire looks like please as everything I see in there seems pretty well rigged up and coming from the same area. As I was saying earlier I have a brown wire with white tag and a white wire with brown tag, so I just want to verify that when you say white you mean tag - not wire.
    Also regarding the key, I can indeed turn it to start once but not twice, so can I deduct from that that it is grounded properly?.
    A 'flying' wire, or lead, is the factory description for a loose (i.e.- not bundled together in a grouping or a harness) wire.

    Regarding your tags- it sounds like they're hooked together in reverse, but considering what they should do, that won't be a problem. It's simple in/out. All the switches I've looked at, the wire coming from the switch- in your case, that black barrel connector- they should colored wire. The color wire will correspond to the color of sleeve they are connected to at the harness. Red wire at the switch connects to red sleeved black wire on the harness (output to coil), for example.

    Turning it to start once is a mechanical defeat to prevent re engaging the starter on the manual shift cars.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    I gotta learn to type faster...
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    Truly very much appreciated Hotrod.!

    Now, because this is a little beyond my electricals skills and am not able to trace those two flying wires out in the engine bay , can I use some lateral thinking here.

    Having established those two flyingwires at the barrel, can I cut them there, then join another length of wires to them and take those directly to the solenoid ?

    The previous picture I posted wasn't the correct one , this is the one I bought.
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    Last edited by harrisson_citroen; 25th December 2013 at 06:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    Truly very much appreciated Hotrod.!

    Now, because this is a little beyond my electricals skills and am not able to trace those two flying wires out in the engine bay , can I use some lateral thinking here.

    Having established those two flyingwires at the barrel, can I cut them there, then join another length of wires to them and take those directly to the solenoid ?

    The previous picture I posted wasn't the correct one , this is the one I bought.
    Hi Phil-

    First of all, Feliz Navidad to ya.

    Was the alternator changed out from the factory stock one? If it was, you will need a ground wire. From the brown lead on the ignition switch, splice on a piece of 14ga (black is OK) and find a suitable grounding point, such as an assembly bolt or the system ground stud.

    Let's see if we can find that one wire that goes towards the solenoid. Do you own a test light? If you don't, get yourself an inexpensive one- shouldn't be more than a few dollars. Any reputable parts store will have one.

    OK- you have your test light. Your car is what, a '73? Seek out the charge wire. That will be the one that connects directly to the battery bolt on the solenoid. It's a fair size wire (we would say a 10ga), the only other wire that's bigger is the cable to the starter (I think those are a 6ga). Either with a black sheath or wrapped to that charge wire should be your start wire. That will be a black wire with a red-sleeved 4mm end. If that wire does not appear to be there, don't panic. Do a little investigating. Feel for a consistent lump that snakes down towards the the fender connection. It may have broken off- the engine compartment wiring on a D tends to get rather well beaten. Look thoroughly- it may have gotten disconnected by a previous owner and just tossed to the side.

    If you found it- great. That test light I had you buy is now going to get put to use. Connect the battery. Connect the clip end to the start wire end. Take the probe end and stick it into the positive battery clamp- you see the gap where the two halves of the clamp come together? There will be good, just ensure it's firmly touching lead there. While you watch the light for on/off, have your wife/significant other/slave/trained monkey turn the ignition switch to start. A light means you've found the correct wire. Turn the switch on and off a couple of times to confirm.

    At this point, you can connect the wire directly to it's pin on the solenoid for a brief test. However, I cannot stress this caution enough- make sure the transmission is firmly in park and the handbrake is set. You will be bypassing the neutral safety switch, something I strenuously warn against in most all situations. In park and brake set, connect the wire you found and the yellow wire together, and attempt to start the car. You don't even need to start the car- you just need some reaction from the starter solenoid.

    If you did not or cannot find the wire: Then yes- you'll need to cut and splice a wire. Go from the white wire to the solenoid. You'll have to sneak a wire out the passenger side of the harness to the solenoid. Black wire will simply make the appearance better. 14ga should be sufficient. You can use a wire coat hanger and a generous amount of masking tape to get the wire out past the foam seal at the firewall. If you have a stereo cutout in the dash under the glovebox, remove the stereo (no need to disconnect it) and from there, you should be able to get it across the dash from there. Just be careful poking around- don't want to do any damage. Hookup and testing will be the same as above. Use red shrink tubing if available to permanently mark your new wire at the terminal.

    Regardless of what method you used to get a ground signal to the solenoid:We now need to find the wiring coming from the neutral safety switch. there are four wires: two reds, a yellow, and a mauve. The yellow and mauve are your reversing lights. David S made an important point: check to see if your reversing lights are working. With parking brake set, engine not running, put the car in reverse, and have your lovely assistant tell you on or off. That would tell you the switch is operational.

    It is probably a gang of 4 wires in a separate bundle coming from that switch. You want the two red marked ones. Connect male to female, and female to male at the solenoid. IOW, the yellow wire from the solenoid will connect to one of the two coming from the transmission. The wire you found/replaced will connect to the remaining wire from the transmission.

    The system is now connected and ready to test from the driver's seat. Car in park, parking brake applied, try to start the car.

    I'm going to be away for a couple of days, I'll try to check in on your progress from another computer.



    Cheers-
    Bill
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    Thank you so much for this help Hotrod. I will also be in and out in the coming few days but will hopefully get into it asap.

    By the way, if ever you're in Brisbane......


    Happy Christmas.
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    Some Success,

    Attached are two pictures.

    I have found blue tag wire "C" which appears to RETURN from the transmission. I connected the clip to it and the light to positive on battery, when key turned to ignition the light comes ON


    Buoyed by a new spirit of excitement, I promptly connected this wire "C" to wire "A". And turned the key nothing happened. I guess it's because I have to do something with wire "B"

    Connect to chassis?
    starter battery solenoid on DS23IE.....Hotrodelectric, where are youuuuuu!!!!!!!!!-20131228_084706.jpgstarter battery solenoid on DS23IE.....Hotrodelectric, where are youuuuuu!!!!!!!!!-20131228_084635.jpg
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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