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Thread: Traps for young players and schoolboy errors ...

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger
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    Default Traps for young players and schoolboy errors ...

    A thread in which to note traps for the unwary. To begin with:

    DS 5 speed ... Who stole the speedo pinion?

    While refitting a speedo cable to a 5 speed gearbox, something seemed amiss and it seemed odd that there was nothing for the end of the cable to engage with. There should be a slot in the middle, but there was only what looks like a cone and a hole at the bottom. The parts diagram makes it become obvious the pinion should poke up in the middle and run in a bush. The bush is obviously there and it can be pulled out, but there is no cup washer or pinion to be seen. The bush and cup are common to the 4 speed cars, but not the pinion going by the part number.

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    OK, so the pinion has been borrowed and another needs to be found. This is all profoundly irritating. One last thought is to stick the magnetic pick up into the oil and see what comes up ... and there they were! Both are steel parts.

    So, the lesson here is that if you pull the speedo cable from the gearbox, and this must go for the 4 speed cars too, it's possible that the nylon bush will pull up with it. If that happens, the speedo pinion gear can fall out and end up in the bottom of the gearbox. It's only held in by the bush and a stop that is part of the front cover. Removing the front cover could also cause this problem. In this case, it probably happened when the engine and gearbox were removed about 10 years ago.

    Possible disaster averted!
    Last edited by David S; 20th December 2013 at 02:25 PM.

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Did you get pics David,
    I've always wondered if mine is complete, the speedo cable has a wire wound and then wired to a bolt to keep it in place?

    Cheers
    Chris
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    How about a simple, obvious one? I've received (I've lost count) calls for help in straightening out connections in their electrical systems. This usually results from a little over-exuberance disconnecting things without noting what went where, or discerning that the identifying colors have all turned to a uniform shade of mud.

    It's not just the noobs I've gotten calls from- I've also heard from people who have owned these cars in one form or another for decades.

    People- it's an easy mistake to make. It's also an easy mistake to avoid. A marker and a roll of masking tape is your friend here. Mark both sides- male and female- of the connection and/or switch. The only place where you'll see more than 10 connections (the number of colors used) will, on the later cars, be at the connection to the rear harness. You'll make a lot fewer re-connection mistakes. If you had a mistake before, at a minimum you won't be adding any more, making tracking easier.
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    M.Hotrodelectric,
    I wonder if you have ever had to negotiate a very late DS 23 with electronic fuel injection, air con and electric fans on radiator and condensers below the front bumpers. and an abundance of relays mounted on the inside ledge of the left mounted battery case with inadequate wire length and total inability to remove anything without disturbing the whole damn lot ... I am convinced they put a battery seed on the base of the battery shelf, and watched it grow into full maturity. They couldn't have done it any other way...and the battery and additional wiring on CXs requires removal of the headlight for easy access.... bear in mind that we had local somewhat Heath Robinson aircon providers who bequeathed a lifetime of employment for subsequent fiddlers.

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    How do you like this for a schoolboy error. Happened about 40 years ago so I was very young and very stupid but very enthusiastic too. I was determined to build 'perfect' hydraulics and had worked through the car, an ID19 I think and was homing in on the last leak which looked like it was in the main control valve attached to the accumulator. I had already reseated the ball valve in this but was suspicious about pitting of the seat. I pressed out the steel valve from the aluminium body and did a smicko job on the lathe.

    However this is where I went dismally wrong. It is possible to press this seat back into the body and misalign the ports.
    When I started the engine I was a bit concerned about no immediate hydraulic response until....

    Bang!

    .... The accumulator sphere exploded. The valve body headed north and only stopped when finally restrained by the hydraulic feed line from the pump. The lower half of the sphere pressed a beautiful hemispherical impression into the under engine shield into the earth floor of the shed.
    Am I the only dickhead to have done this?

    Shame.

  6. #6
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzelhund View Post
    M.Hotrodelectric,
    I wonder if you have ever had to negotiate a very late DS 23 with electronic fuel injection, air con and electric fans on radiator and condensers below the front bumpers. and an abundance of relays mounted on the inside ledge of the left mounted battery case with inadequate wire length and total inability to remove anything without disturbing the whole damn lot ... I am convinced they put a battery seed on the base of the battery shelf, and watched it grow into full maturity. They couldn't have done it any other way...and the battery and additional wiring on CXs requires removal of the headlight for easy access.... bear in mind that we had local somewhat Heath Robinson aircon providers who bequeathed a lifetime of employment for subsequent fiddlers.
    Gruess Gott, Herr Fritzelhund.

    No. Never played with a late 23. I have, however played with W140 Mercedes', Rolls Royce Silver Spirits, various Jaguars, street rods where the specification should scare the crap out of anyone sane, limousines, hearses, armored cars, Pebble Beach quality restorations, '50, '60 and '70s American iron, Volkswagens, Jeeps, and just a couple of Citroens. I have played with Bosch K-Jet, D-Jet and Motronic. Built some of the worlds first Tuned Port Injection systems to be used in a non-Corvette setting. The kinds of problems most sparkies give up on or badly misdiagnose I don't turn away- and can usually find the problem relatively quickly. I think my bona-fides are well established. A D Injection with A/C doesn't hold much horror for me.

    Having had my own CX, I am aware of some of the difficulties there, too. I've also had 2 GS', a 2CV, a Dyane, and 3 DS'. Not to mention the 504, 4 505s, and 2 R5s. I think my affection for old French machinery stands on it's own- pretty difficult to do in the US.

    I wasn't trying to pick a fight, Fritzelhund. I was just thinking for most people who have never removed a front fender from a D, "do this to make your life easier". It's a rookie mistake a lot of people make. I wasn't talking about pulling the system completely apart- that would be a pretty foolish thing for anyone not versed in these to make.
    Last edited by Hotrodelectric; 20th December 2013 at 11:10 PM. Reason: Misspelt fritzelhund's name- twice. Sorry 'bout that.
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    Mr Hotrodelectric,
    I wasn't trying to start a fight either ,nor doubting your talent, just stating the fact that something so seemingly simple was a complete c*ck up, yet could have been so easily solved at source....no doubt the result of so called evolution which amounted to layering more components into places that were (a) never designed for them and ( b ) completely unsuited to servicing access. Such spaghetti of wiring ( and the backwards step of returning to rubber coated wiring ) was probably an economy measure and probably assisted by the cheap labour of the time..pity the poor repairer later. Rover and Jaguar were notorious for such lack of "downstream' thinking too.
    The previous generation of C5 also has some examples of sheer cussedness that causes frustration and unnecessary drama ( and $$$ ) a few years down the track....something as seemingly simple as power steering hoses and return pipes from rear suspension...the octopus location of the BX generation is another example.
    Please do not be offended. I enjoy your posts, keep them a comin'.

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzelhund View Post
    Mr Hotrodelectric,
    I wasn't trying to start a fight either ,nor doubting your talent, just stating the fact that something so seemingly simple was a complete c*ck up, yet could have been so easily solved at source....no doubt the result of so called evolution which amounted to layering more components into places that were (a) never designed for them and ( b ) completely unsuited to servicing access. Such spaghetti of wiring ( and the backwards step of returning to rubber coated wiring ) was probably an economy measure and probably assisted by the cheap labour of the time..pity the poor repairer later. Rover and Jaguar were notorious for such lack of "downstream' thinking too.
    The previous generation of C5 also has some examples of sheer cussedness that causes frustration and unnecessary drama ( and $$$ ) a few years down the track....something as seemingly simple as power steering hoses and return pipes from rear suspension...the octopus location of the BX generation is another example.
    Please do not be offended. I enjoy your posts, keep them a comin'.
    Yah, I need to step back off the precipice. A combination of things personally and professionally plus my misread of your post, and I was tempted to select the nuclear option. I'm glad I didn't. Stop, breathe, and say I'm sorry.

    Oof. OK- at the risk of sending this thread even further off to the left than it now is, let me see if I can answer your points, some of which are spot on.

    First, gotta go the full disclosure route: Remember, I'm a Yank. We haven't seen a factory fresh Citroen since 1973, save for various gray market attempts with mixed results. That includes CXA. We never officially got the DS Injection, the 23, the 5 speed or the Automatique. Any of those are very rare here. Even the gray market imports stopped about the time the XM was a couple of years old.

    All that is why I don't chime in too often on any of the C- threads. I simply don't know them, and I don't appreciate naff information, giving or receiving.

    Getting back to your post, yes. The layouts could have been quite a lot better. I still believe that the black wire for the '68 to early '70 was sourced from an East Bloc country. The factory didn't really care, because the thinking seem to go "the customer will throw the car away in a few years- who cares?". NOBODY expected a D to last this long. You're right about the coating. It's a rubber-like material, almost like hypalon. The earlier-than-'68 cars used a different wire with I think a PVC jacket. It would dry out, and even crack, but it wouldn't just fall off if you looked at it wrong. Same for the post early '70 wire.

    The real problem with the layout was that, with the easily removable fenders, there was very little space to mount ancillaries. Even something like a washer bottle needed a separate bracket attached to the frame horn to have a home. People have problems enough with the 8 wire/5 wire fender setups. Attaching the FI and and other various electrical components to the fenders would have been disastrous. The battery brace really was the only location for all those relays. Still, it would have cost little extra to make a harness that actually fit. The labor making and installing it giving a damn would have helped immensely. For all it's beauty, a D is rather indifferently built in this regard.

    I've been noticing on this board that the last gen C5 has some problems- and those cars are not that old. I can at least cut a BX some slack- those are quite a bit older, and rubber tends to go bad with exposure to oil in the long term. It's an annoying problem, but it is a 30 year old car.

    Lastly, you don't need to call me Mr, or Sir, or any of that other cr*p. Bill is perfectly acceptable, as is HRE, or HotRod, or Hey You!, or any of the other monikers you can think of. Just don't call me late for dinner, and we are good.

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    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    Good on you, Bill! we love your posts here ! Happy Christmas and New year!
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    Bill, dude, Glad we cleared the air. keep up the info rich posts.
    M. Citroen keeps me awake at night ... still !! so many years after DS ownerships ended... such a mixture of inspiration and exasperation ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    Good on you, Bill! we love your posts here ! Happy Christmas and New year!
    Same from me Bill. You've made a great contribution!

    Must get to San Diego. If ever you are in Perth let us know.....
    JohnW

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    Default Flashing without the raincoat ...

    I'd had an interesting issue a while ago where the XM radio would turn off momentarily when I pressed the brake pedal or used the indicators. It's not the original unit, so its switching circuit may be more sensitive than the factory unit. However, changing the alternator appears to have resolved that problem along with the no-start condition that finally forced the issue.

    When the indicators recently decided to operate intermittently, my first suspect was that alternator, which was from a scrapped car. Not so this time. The root of this flasher problem was a classic dry joint. Opening up the flasher unit, it was obvious that one of the pins was loose. That probably explains the unpredictable operation once the car had warmed up, but usually normal behaviour when cold.

    To get at the flasher unit and the other relays on the main fuse/junction box, you have to remove the glovebox unit. This is easy and you only need a Torx 20 and something flat to pry off the lock surround. It comes out most easily by opening and lifting the hinge side upwards so that the lock mechanism can come out. See the pictures and note the extra screw under the lock. The fuse box can be unclipped from it's upper mounts for access.

    While you have the glovebox out, check that the AC recirculation flap motor actually moves when instructed to by the control unit. It's right in front of you with the glovebox out. The fan is directly below it. The flap motors are unfortunately quite expensive, but have a habit of dropping a tooth and stopping.

    There's a similar story for the DS23. The flasher and hazards work fine, but the dash repeater was intermittently not working or dim. Why? After a lot of chasing and checking of wires, including a soldered repair to a connection at the back of the cluster to arrive at the conclusion that everything seemed fine ... the fault was ... a dirty contact inside the flasher can. On the DS23, this is held in behind the dash cluster by one small bolt. If it's the original thermal unit from the factory, the case is soft alloy and can be carefully prised open to reveal the mechanism. There are actually three contacts in there, so check each of them. A similar thermal timer idea is used on the D-Jet thermo-time switch on the head, but it's not intended to repeat.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Traps for young players and schoolboy errors ...-xm_gloveboxremoved.jpg   Traps for young players and schoolboy errors ...-xm_flasherlocn.jpg   Traps for young players and schoolboy errors ...-xm_flasherpcb.jpg   Traps for young players and schoolboy errors ...-xm_gloveboxlockfinisher.jpg  
    Last edited by David S; 1st February 2014 at 11:07 PM.

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    I've found a huge difference in quality between the Italian flasher relays and the French ones. The former seem better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    I've found a huge difference in quality between the Italian flasher relays and the French ones. The former seem better.
    When replacing flasher units it's best to purchase an "electronic" unit. I've used Tridon brand. They have a 555 chip which sets the flash interval totally independent load current.

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    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
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    Yesterday a customer plonked what he thought was a fuel filter on the counter and ask for a replacement.
    He had bought in the charcoal canister. Fuel filter for that car was an in tank unit.
    Paul
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    A potential trap here ... DS with LHM entering the boot and dripping on the ground under the rear height corrector. Suspension boots are recent (but repro and already going off!) and no leakage could be found at any of the pipe unions. It was obviously leaking from the level of the corrector, but the corrector was not leaking. So, from where?

    It turns out that the return line from the left rear boot runs up, forward, under the height corrector mounting, across the back of the boot with two steel pipes, where it then joins the return from the right boot. A common line then runs inside the right sill back to the front of the car and eventually back to the reservoir. The problem here is that the line from the left boot passes under the linkage for the rear height corrector and can touch it, resulting in an eventual rub through as the link moves and, therefore, leakage. The LHM enters the boot around the linkage, which will not be as well sealed now as it once might have been.

    Replace the line or cut and sleeve it is the repair. It's not a unique problem as the used line I had had also rubbed through in the same place. If you sleeve the tube, you will have remove the closing plate for access, which involves disconnecting the brake pipe as it passes though it and cutting some of the rubber away to refit and allow for the sleeve. Some sort of packing would be sensible to ensure the repaired line is pushed away from the corrector linkage.

    Traps for young players and schoolboy errors ...-dreturn.jpg

    Thankfully, it's only LHM and not LHS. Another good reason to convert to green fluid when the opportunity arises.
    Last edited by David S; 22nd May 2014 at 08:36 PM.

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    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Important to remember that the 5-speed and 4-speed pinions are not the same - they are in fact mirror images as the 5-speed is on the opposide side of the front of the gearbox.... been there, done that...

    Cheers,

    Mark....
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    A thread in which to note traps for the unwary. To begin with:

    DS 5 speed ... Who stole the speedo pinion?

    While refitting a speedo cable to a 5 speed gearbox, something seemed amiss and it seemed odd that there was nothing for the end of the cable to engage with. There should be a slot in the middle, but there was only what looks like a cone and a hole at the bottom. The parts diagram makes it become obvious the pinion should poke up in the middle and run in a bush. The bush is obviously there and it can be pulled out, but there is no cup washer or pinion to be seen. The bush and cup are common to the 4 speed cars, but not the pinion going by the part number.

    OK, so the pinion has been borrowed and another needs to be found. This is all profoundly irritating. One last thought is to stick the magnetic pick up into the oil and see what comes up ... and there they were! Both are steel parts.

    So, the lesson here is that if you pull the speedo cable from the gearbox, and this must go for the 4 speed cars too, it's possible that the nylon bush will pull up with it. If that happens, the speedo pinion gear can fall out and end up in the bottom of the gearbox. It's only held in by the bush and a stop that is part of the front cover. Removing the front cover could also cause this problem. In this case, it probably happened when the engine and gearbox were removed about 10 years ago.

    Possible disaster averted!
    The same can apply to the CX speedo pinion and the governor cable drive. The GS may also be a candidate for this problem. It is also possible to dislodge the drive on a TA four cylinder but I cannot remember whether the 6 also suffered!
    Cheers Gerry

  19. #19
    mnm
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    A potential trap here ... DS with LHM entering the boot and dripping on the ground under the rear height corrector. Suspension boots are recent (but repro and already going off!) and no leakage could be found at any of the pipe unions. It was obviously leaking from the level of the corrector, but the corrector was not leaking. So, from where?

    It turns out that the return line from the left rear boot runs up, forward, under the height corrector mounting, across the back of the boot with two steel pipes, where it then joins the return from the right boot. A common line then runs inside the right sill back to the front of the car and eventually back to the reservoir. The problem here is that the line from the left boot passes under the linkage for the rear height corrector and can touch it, resulting in an eventual rub through as the link moves and, therefore, leakage. The LHM enters the boot around the linkage, which will not be as well sealed now as it once might have been.

    Replace the line or cut and sleeve it is the repair. It's not a unique problem as the used line I had had also rubbed through in the same place. If you sleeve the tube, you will have remove the closing plate for access, which involves disconnecting the brake pipe as it passes though it and cutting some of the rubber away to refit and allow for the sleeve. Some sort of packing would be sensible to ensure the repaired line is pushed away from the corrector linkage.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DReturn.JPG 
Views:	2964 
Size:	86.4 KB 
ID:	56394

    Thankfully, it's only LHM and not LHS. Another good reason to convert to green fluid when the opportunity arises.
    Replaced mine recently for this reason...



    Matthew

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    Quote Originally Posted by 504-504-504 View Post
    Yesterday a customer plonked what he thought was a fuel filter on the counter and ask for a replacement.
    He had bought in the charcoal canister. Fuel filter for that car was an in tank unit.
    Paul
    Gotta love that.

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