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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Default To build a DS.

    Hi everyone,My creative 'note to Citroen widows' has obviously drawn a blank apart from lewd posts from non-widows.
    To take out my Citroenless frustrations I am proposing to build a virtual DS. As a start see attached image. This is a cheap and cheerful model of a 3rd nose bonnet (hood) based on scratchy memories of the dimensions involved.



    To make a reasonable job of this I would need a lot of critical dimensions which I have not been able to find so far.
    Of course a kind Aussiefrogger could always donate to me a DS21 which is excess to their supply so I can measure direct. (Heh heh! Subtle ruse to get real car for Christmas... 7 more sleeps Santa).
    I'm assuming there are other Aussifroggers out there with similar geeky skills who might be able to help with the build, even if it's drawing up bits in pencil which I can translate to 3d. Obviously we'll need to establish a protocol.To kick it off I think it would be sensible to start with the hull and then add panels.
    If done with a degree of precision then this could end up as a valuable resource, 3d models of impossible to source parts which could be run through a 3d printer for example, or individual sheet metal parts capable of being 'flattened' for reproduction. This might be particularly usefull for chassis cill parts.
    Any takers?

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    Iain.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails To build a DS.-20131218_ds21bonnet-.jpg  
    Last edited by ScotFrog; 19th December 2013 at 11:44 AM.

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Having trouble loading a jpg from the IPad. Any clues?

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Very simple. Start with these people who have all the dimensions.
    VOTRE DS - Ikonoto Online Shopping
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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Thanks Gerry, I know this site and certainly good elevation images are useful, but not in the league of real dimensioned drawings. I managed to post a URL for the image of the bonnet, I think but I suspect it was too high a resolution and too big a file size for this web site. Hopefully an administrator will advise me what to do since I'll need to be fluent with the process once I get going.

    To save confusion, I am not doing an Ikonotu elevation type approach, but true 3d which can be as real as I want to make it. The bonnet may not be exactly correct in terms of dimension at present but it will be possible to reproduce it to micron levels. Similarly sheet metal parts for the chassis. All I need are good reliable numbers.

    Iain
    Last edited by ScotFrog; 19th December 2013 at 12:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Thanks Gerry, I know this site and certainly good elevation images are useful, but not in the league of real dimensioned drawings.

    Iain
    As someone who has purchased product of Ikonauto I can assure you they are dimensionally correct in every way.
    They are real precision drawings at the top of the league, with no challengers.
    Pascal is a true aficionado of the D series and even produces a calendar each year for those who have bought his product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Hi everyone,My creative 'note to Citroen widows' has obviously drawn a blank apart from lewd posts from non-widows.
    To take out my Citroenless frustrations I am proposing to build a virtual DS. As a start see attached image. This is a cheap and cheerful model of a 3rd nose bonnet (hood) based on scratchy memories of the dimensions involved.

    https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/s/?...r7q0&safe=1&zw

    To make a reasonable job of this I would need a lot of critical dimensions which I have not been able to find so far.
    Of course a kind Aussiefrogger could always donate to me a DS21 which is excess to their supply so I can measure direct. (Heh heh! Subtle ruse to get real car for Christmas... 7 more sleeps Santa).
    I'm assuming there are other Aussifroggers out there with similar geeky skills who might be able to help with the build, even if it's drawing up bits in pencil which I can translate to 3d. Obviously we'll need to establish a protocol.To kick it off I think it would be sensible to start with the hull and then add panels.
    If done with a degree of precision then this could end up as a valuable resource, 3d models of impossible to source parts which could be run through a 3d printer for example, or individual sheet metal parts capable of being 'flattened' for reproduction. This might be particularly usefull for chassis cill parts.
    Any takers?


    Iain.
    This is a very ambitious project, the point of which I fail to grasp.
    All of the relevant data points for the hull are given in the DS body manual, as pertinent to repairs.
    A little while ago I drafted out a large scale drawing of the DS decap, scaling from the factory drawings. I was amazed and humbled as the nuances of Bertoni's lines and curves appeared before my eyes. The drawing was for a 0.6 scale DS decap which I have started to build.
    roger

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Hi Roger, when you say model do you mean physical or virtual?
    I also am humbled by the lines of this car like you and following in someone's footsteps is significantly easier than starting from scratch.
    What I am proposing is virtual, and not necessarily as ambitious as you might think. The bonnet I have posted took about an hour for example and if I had, say 10 or 15 good 3d data points, I.e. x,y and z co-ordinates I can, and will post edit the file to precisely reproduce the surfaces. If required this could be 3d printed to +\- 0.2mm... At any scale.
    The most useful parts however that I'm thinking of are the parts which tend to rust out. These possibly exist as factory drawings but if I model them then I can 'flatten' the parts to provide elevations which can be laser cut and folded to replace rusted parts (assuming simple folds) which most hull parts appear to be, at least in the floor area, the worst rust affected zone.
    The other useful parts are probably small plastic parts which are now impossible to get. These can be 'printed' sanded and painted to replace broken or lost parts.
    You obviously have got on to a good source of detail drawings. Are these in the public domain and if so can you post a link?

    Iain.

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    Nooooo! Lovely thing but not what I'm proposing.
    I suspect I'm going to have to retreat for a short while and post something a bit more credible to establish credentials.
    Watch this space.

    Iain.

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Nooooo! Lovely thing but not what I'm proposing.
    I suspect I'm going to have to retreat for a short while and post something a bit more credible to establish credentials.
    Watch this space.

    Iain.
    Just trying to help
    Michael
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    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Hi Michael. Is the link on my first post working or am I going to have to work out how to post a JPG. The link works fine for me but the link may be accessing my I-Pad data directly and not via the web. I can't tell.

    Iain.

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    Scotfrog I am surprised that you haven't heard from that young Llewellyn's Old Man who has a myriad of old Citroens rusting away and cluttering up said Old Man's yard. I am sure if you put in another approach, to other members of the family not wife or partner, you might get somewhere in your quest. Might be a bit far from home in travel time but that would determine how desperate your desire really is.

    FLASH

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    Make a big one out of 3D print meringue! Mmm

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog;1217126

    [url
    https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/s/?view=att&th=1430492e00f0275d&attid=0.1&disp=attd& realattid=f_hpc91r7q0&safe=1&zw[/url]

    To make a reasonable job of this I would need a lot of critical dimensions which I have not been able to find so far.


    Any takers?


    Iain.

    OK Iain, I'm in. I have a robotics laser theodolite which can take a multitude of reflectorless shots. In other words it will record any x,y,z position (co-ordinates) of whatever you aim it at. So if I take enough shots around the car I can produce indeed an accurate model which you can then render or 3dprint.
    Have you got access to cad ?
    Will start over the holidays. I'm sure there are others here who can then render and utilize the wiremesh .

    Philippe
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Many thanks Philippe,
    What is the resolution of your theodolite?

    I just hope nobody else has done this!
    I have access to Cad and can run it. I thought about the approach overnight and as I said on one post it is actually easier than one thinks. Each part will take varying amounts of effort. The bonnet in the opening post of this thread took about an hour and is a very subtle sculpted shape but when analysed is incredibly simple. This in my mind is the genius of the car's shape. Some parts, particularly hull parts will be simpler. The other thing which is relevant is that as the total model takes shape dimensions and measuring discrepancies will become obvious. These can be corrected 'on the run'. The end result will in all probability be more accurate than the original. They did not have CAD in the 50's.
    I am not proposing to make a marathon out of this and I suspect that early focus will be to assist Citroen owners in restorations, I.e. vulnerable often required bits available in digital format for accurate local manufacture.
    I'll post a drawing with 3 elevations later today of the bonnet which I made a start on. This drawing will have about 6-10 points identified for which I would like x,y,z co-ordinates.
    i realise that the bonnet is not necessarily the logical start point but it will prove the process. The data you extract doesn't need to be set up carefully although that helps. Just opening the bonnet so it is not shielded by other parts is good enough, I can normalise the data my end.

    As a matter of interest I have a friend who has a collection of Rolls Royces, including a couple of pre-1920's Ghosts. He started making wooden patterns of no longer available castings and now has the largest collection of Rolls Royce production jigs in the world, his words not mine.

    In case there are others on the thread who run CAD I use SolidWorks and it has a good range of import/export options to allow us to merge results, someone may have something more high end. I have in the past imported Google Sketchup and AutoCAD 2d and 3d and this works reasonably well.

    Iain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Car 76 View Post
    Scotfrog I am surprised that you haven't heard from that young Llewellyn's Old Man who has a myriad of old Citroens rusting away and cluttering up said Old Man's yard. I am sure if you put in another approach, to other members of the family not wife or partner, you might get somewhere in your quest. Might be a bit far from home in travel time but that would determine how desperate your desire really is.

    FLASH
    Thanks Flash, hopefully Santa, sorry Llewellin, is reading this and will make contact.

    Iain.

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    Not if you spell his name wrong........................................

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Curses! Humble apologies Llewellyn. Grovel grovel.

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    Default First data request

    Hi Philippe,
    See attached,
    Is this possible to achieve with your scanner?

    IainTo build a DS.-20131219_ds21-.jpg

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Merry Christmas!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails To build a DS.-2013xmas.jpg  

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    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Hi Philippe,
    See attached,
    Is this possible to achieve with your scanner?

    IainClick image for larger version. 

Name:	20131219_DS21-a.jpg 
Views:	473 
Size:	85.8 KB 
ID:	50997

    Iain ,


    I've got a Leica, that is different to a scanner. Where the scanner will shoot thousands of points , I take 1 at a time but they are surveying standard and highly accurate x,y,z, co-ords.
    Yes I can assign coords to the points you've shown on your plan easily. I can assign them to all important points of the car. This was mostly my idea: to get highly accurate dimensions of the car in 3d that can then be used for various things.

    So I'll start probably after the 27th. It should really only take one day to get it done. I'll produce a cad file.

    I know it has been done before, but is not easy to get your hands on it ie you have to pay..... otherwise you can get some rough 3dmodels of the DS that look just like that...rough
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    Iain ,


    I've got a Leica, that is different to a scanner. Where the scanner will shoot thousands of points , I take 1 at a time but they are surveying standard and highly accurate x,y,z, co-ords.
    Yes I can assign coords to the points you've shown on your plan easily. I can assign them to all important points of the car. This was mostly my idea: to get highly accurate dimensions of the car in 3d that can then be used for various things.

    So I'll start probably after the 27th. It should really only take one day to get it done. I'll produce a cad file.

    I know it has been done before, but is not easy to get your hands on it ie you have to pay..... otherwise you can get some rough 3dmodels of the DS that look just like that...rough
    This sound promising. I'm a bit slack at the moment and spent a bit of time extracting dimensions from various source. The problem is they all vary, by sometimes significant amounts, up to 75mm in places. Any elevations I can lay my hands on seem to employ liberal doses of artistic licence and compromise the integrity of Bertoni's sculpture.
    I also tracked down a couple of decent side elevation photos and even allowing for parallax errors they are different again. The most significant departures seem to be around the rear window and tail of roof section.

    Good scans will be interesting!

    Ill try to post a composite to illustrate the problem.

    Iain

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Have you considered writing to the Conservatoire and asking for a copy of the factory drawings?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Hi Roger, when you say model do you mean physical or virtual?
    I also am humbled by the lines of this car like you and following in someone's footsteps is significantly easier than starting from scratch.
    What I am proposing is virtual, and not necessarily as ambitious as you might think. The bonnet I have posted took about an hour for example and if I had, say 10 or 15 good 3d data points, I.e. x,y and z co-ordinates I can, and will post edit the file to precisely reproduce the surfaces. If required this could be 3d printed to +\- 0.2mm... At any scale.
    The most useful parts however that I'm thinking of are the parts which tend to rust out. These possibly exist as factory drawings but if I model them then I can 'flatten' the parts to provide elevations which can be laser cut and folded to replace rusted parts (assuming simple folds) which most hull parts appear to be, at least in the floor area, the worst rust affected zone.
    The other useful parts are probably small plastic parts which are now impossible to get. These can be 'printed' sanded and painted to replace broken or lost parts.
    You obviously have got on to a good source of detail drawings. Are these in the public domain and if so can you post a link?

    Iain.
    To clarify, I have started construction of a real (not virtual) 0.6 x fullsize DS decap.
    The drawings I referred to are in the ID/DS19 Body Repair Manual - my copy is No. 471 dated 1964. This manual can be found in the references in the stickies at the beginning of the Citroen Forum.
    roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    To clarify, I have started construction of a real (not virtual) 0.6 x fullsize DS decap.
    The drawings I referred to are in the ID/DS19 Body Repair Manual - my copy is No. 471 dated 1964. This manual can be found in the references in the stickies at the beginning of the Citroen Forum.
    roger
    Ive checked the drawings in the repair manual and although very useful, particularly datum points they don't have enough numbers detail, mostly pictorial and from the comparing that I've so far done they can be misleading. The chassis rails setions are useful but need a tape measure run over them to confirm final numbers.

    If only I had a car in the shed.... Sigh.

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