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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Icon5 Quest

    The ideal 'D'.I thought this might be an interesting thread to start since I feel that not everyone will have the same point of view about 'ideal'. I have an ulterior motive for starting this thread. I am on a quest towards classic Citroen ownership. I drive a 2002 C5 and it doesn't quite have that animal quality of the D and to an extent the CX. It's probably a good idea to float the specifications for my ideal Goddess in case I have misconceptions which need correction.

    Having owned 8 of these D creatures, 1CX and 1GS and the present C5 over my working life I feel the need is coming upon me once more. I've been looking for a D for some months now and the compulsion is now becoming almost unbearable.
    My likes and dislikes are personal and possibly limiting so I'm hoping to start discussion on the relative merits of the variables which became available over the life of these vehicles. There was a very interesting and vigorous discussion centred on LHS2 and LHM which highlighted many factors pointing towards the conclusion ( for me that is) that LHM is desirable. This was different from my original starting point, I might have been tempted by an earlier LHS2 car but not now. On the same basis it will be interesting to compare my starting specs with what I end up with.



    Post 1970, 3rd nose DS21
    LHM
    Driveable possibly registered.
    Normally aspirated. Not EFI.
    4 or 5 speed manual box, not BVH.
    Leather (Pallas?) interior in acceptable but not desperate condition.
    Minimal rust, I'm realistic, the chances of finding another like Shane's is a long shot.
    Straight enough for someone with minimal skills but with reasonable workshop facilities and a lot of enthusiasm to turn into a presentable companion.
    Colour not really important.
    Not a unique car which might justify a place in a museum because it is too valuable to risk driving.


    Are my specs the same as everyone else's or am I missing something?

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    Iain.

  2. #2
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Post 1970, 3rd nose DS21
    LHM
    Driveable possibly registered.
    Normally aspirated. Not EFI.
    4 or 5 speed manual box, not BVH.
    Leather (Pallas?) interior in acceptable but not desperate condition.
    Minimal rust, I'm realistic, the chances of finding another like Shane's is a long shot.
    Straight enough for someone with minimal skills but with reasonable workshop facilities and a lot of enthusiasm to turn into a presentable companion.
    Colour not really important.
    Not a unique car which might justify a place in a museum because it is too valuable to risk driving.


    Are my specs the same as everyone else's or am I missing something?


    Iain.
    No- none of that is out of line or missing. The only question I would pose to you is leather necessary? That was an option on the Pallas version only, although I've wondered why the factory didn't do a 1/2 leather option for the std DS. Also, some people have put the effort into Pallasizing their cars, with varying degrees of success. Anyway, if you're really stuck on leather, you'll be skipping over some very nice cars- UFO's, for example.

    The other thing I would suggest is pay some attention to color. I know I've said "I don't care what color" myself, but I would be less likely to pick a really loud, non-stock lipstick red over a decent Rouge Corail. That is, unless you've budgeted for a reshoot in the color of your choice later on. Fortunately, a D is relatively easy in that regard.

    Take someone with you who really knows the D Series in and out when you go look at a car. Doesn't matter what you know- another pair of dispassioned eyes will help you avert a complete rust bucket needing a rebuilt everything.




    Edit: I should clarify about UFO's car- I don't think it's for sale. I just used that as a nice example of a non-leather car.
    Last edited by Hotrodelectric; 1st December 2013 at 05:45 PM. Reason: clarification
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    From a personal point of view I have one favourite of the three D series cars I have owned.
    I have had a DS23 ie 5 speed Pallas 1974
    A D Super 5 1973
    And a DS 19M Pallas 1964/5.
    I felt that the last car listed was the most enjoyable and rode the best of the above cars. It was certainly the most economical and could make 38mpg at a constant 75-80 MPH. The long stroke 1911 DW series engine conferred a really useful torque range that made it a world apart from the later short stroke engine cars. If I had it today I would spend time converting the system to run LHM instead of the old LHS2 and the only disadvantage of this model would be eliminated!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Is leather necessary?

    I actually put this on the 'spec' took it out then put it back for the following reasons.
    1. I put it in initially because I know what I'm like and there is no way I'll go for a drive without opening the bonnet (hood) to tinker or for show and tell. Fabric upholstery and oily mitts don't mix and there is a good chance that oily finger prints can be wiped off leather.
    2. I then took it, and vinyl out because I, like most of my countrymen have suffered the Aussie 'shorts on 40 degree days' scream.
    3. I put it back because I love the smell.
    4. I took it out because it needs to be fed particularly in the Oz climate.
    5. Vinyl as an option does not appeal for the same reasons as leather's downsides.
    6. It went back on the final list for an obscure? reason. The Ds have always hinted at an animal or living quality. The way they courtesy when you exit and the way they lift when you waken them, the way the 3rd nose version looks round corners and even the feedback through the brake floor button suggests a personality is there. Leather, because of its origins seems appropriate.

    Iain.

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    I've owned a number of D's over the years, and I'm currently restoring two very early cars as I love the purity of the original design. However, the one that I most regret selling was a '65/66 DS21 Pallas BVM. Gris Palladium with a lighter roof, black leather that was beautifully patinated, driving lights - ticked all the boxes for me. Unfortunately circumstances dictated that it had to be moved on but I would jump at the chance at acquiring a similar DS21.
    roger

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    Fellow Frogger! tractionfan's Avatar
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    Scot frog,
    I own the ideal D. It came to me free after being garaged for 16 years. I changed the oil, put new spark plugs in it and fixed a noisy muffler. Then I drove it to the get a pink slip and put it on club rego.
    Now that's what I call IDEAL!

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Lhs2.1
    Strangely enough I had the identical car and, yes it stands out very positively in my memory... But I do like the benefits of LHM and don't think I could go through the pain Shane went through with a transfusion and all that that entails.
    Also strangely enough we are moving to Elphinstone after Christmas so will be almost neighbours.

    Iain

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    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    The ideal deal!

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    Of the ten Ds I've owned, plus many I've driven, four stand out with their endearing characters. They range from a '59 ID to the '74 23 Safari. The '59 with back to front gear change pattern, non powered brakes & steering taught me heaps about what one could do with a Citroen because I wasn't frightened of breaking it [ it never did ],unlike my '70 new D Special. Neither would be my D of choice now though.
    In chronological order the first of my four was the '66 1/2 ID19 Confort. Jersey trim, foam underlay carpet, rear armrest, proper heating, twin throat carb on the lazy, quiet, long stroke motor. If it had the hydraulic gear change I would consider it close to a perfect representation of the original D character. A pity the tin worm went crazy with it after having lived all it's life by the sea.
    Next in my memory of 'wish I had it now' Ds is the gold '72 DS21/ BVH carburettored, with the softest of Tabac Deer hide trim. Almost as refined as the 66 1/2 ID but faster, with the better handling & firmer ride of the later cars, plus significantly higher fuel consumption.
    By contrast, the '70 DS 21 BVH Pallas EFI was a sports cars & once I got it thoroughly sorted, loads of fun to drive quickly. Suspension damping is firmer again on the EFI cars & departs further from the original character, but if you really want to fliy in a D it is the way to go, especially with the BVH box. I never missed the 5 th gear, regularly sitting on an indicated 110mph on the F4 late run to work, pre radar days of course. I think Paul Smythe, Cessnock still has this car & is not known for sparing the horses.
    Lastly, is the '74 DS23 Safari wagon. A loping, lazy , friendly, bathtub on wheels, with ride closest to the earlier long stroke cars. Despite these comments, they should not be underestimated & I very successfully competed against the local car club hoons in their Motorkhana events when I first moved to Coffs., much to their amazement ! I would still kill for a good one, especially with the BVH box. Richo please leave me yours in your will !
    If I had to one of these four now, all things being equal, I would probably choose the DS21 carburettor BVH, .....but on the other hand ?

    You pays your money & you takes your choice .

    Richard

  10. #10
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Is leather necessary?

    I actually put this on the 'spec' took it out then put it back for the following reasons.
    1. I put it in initially because I know what I'm like and there is no way I'll go for a drive without opening the bonnet (hood) to tinker or for show and tell. Fabric upholstery and oily mitts don't mix and there is a good chance that oily finger prints can be wiped off leather.
    2. I then took it, and vinyl out because I, like most of my countrymen have suffered the Aussie 'shorts on 40 degree days' scream.
    3. I put it back because I love the smell.
    4. I took it out because it needs to be fed particularly in the Oz climate.
    5. Vinyl as an option does not appeal for the same reasons as leather's downsides.
    6. It went back on the final list for an obscure? reason. The Ds have always hinted at an animal or living quality. The way they courtesy when you exit and the way they lift when you waken them, the way the 3rd nose version looks round corners and even the feedback through the brake floor button suggests a personality is there. Leather, because of its origins seems appropriate.

    Iain.
    Seems to me that is one very comprehensive yes. The only question left then is choice of finish. Tan, tabac (my preference), or black? Since you are going with a Pallas, make sure all of the trim is there, and there is a lot. I think this site will help educate you on what you need to look for.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Thanks for site details HotRodElectric, I knew this thread would help crystallise my thoughts. Like talking on the psychiatrist's couch!

    Iain

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    Fellow Frogger! deesse's Avatar
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    If you don't have BVH you will feel like you don't have the ultimate D after some time of ownership. If you want leather then original is the nicest though at 40 years old is likely to be toast. What about buying a car from Europe or the US. It will be LHD but no problem to register these days and they were designed to be LHD so are more pure. Also my advice is to always spend more and get better unless you REALLY want to spend more time and money than you've got restoring one. So probably a DS21 pallas BVH 67 or 68 with the slopey dash and LHM.
    Good luck, and remember the search is the best part so make it last.
    cheers Tony

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I reckon the type of 'D' isn't really relevant.... The need to find a good rust free, drivable car is far more important that the cars specification. "Expensively restored" doesn't always mean "good" either sadly.

    Find a car your interested in, then get someone that knows them backwards to check the car for you.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  14. #14
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    I would pick just a few things that are really important to you and have the others as 'nice to have' or be prepared to wait quite a while for the right car. There are only so many good condition cars that come up for sale, and as pointed out the lack of rust is the most important thing.

    For me, my must have was a fairly rust free BVH car with LHM, everything else was nice to have. Would I have liked a Pallas for example - sure, but it wasn't essential. Some things can be changed. I didn't really want a Targa interior, but the car I bought had one, so I am halfway through changing the seat covers to cloth, which is what the car was ordered with anyway. Personally, I don't like the partial pallasing of a car, but each to their own and you can do all these things if you want to.
    --
    1954 Light 15
    1970 DS21 BVH
    http://www.classicjalopy.com

  15. #15
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by deesse View Post
    If you don't have BVH you will feel like you don't have the ultimate D after some time of ownership. If you want leather then original is the nicest though at 40 years old is likely to be toast. What about buying a car from Europe or the US. It will be LHD but no problem to register these days and they were designed to be LHD so are more pure. Also my advice is to always spend more and get better unless you REALLY want to spend more time and money than you've got restoring one. So probably a DS21 pallas BVH 67 or 68 with the slopey dash and LHM.
    Good luck, and remember the search is the best part so make it last.
    cheers Tony
    One of my requirements was the BVH. I am glad I waited until I found a car that met all my preferences. The BVH is a real joy to drive.
    I also think the slope dash with the 3rd nose is a great combination. Rust free or as close as possible should be a prime consideration.

    It took me about 6 months to find the right car for me, but my preferences were fairly tight:

    Slope dash
    BVH
    Minimal rust
    3rd nose but not a USA car
    Pallas
    Leather preferred

    Good luck on your search.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    One of my requirements was the BVH. I am glad I waited until I found a car that met all my preferences. The BVH is a real joy to drive.
    I also think the slope dash with the 3rd nose is a great combination. Rust free or as close as possible should be a prime consideration.


    I'm coming to the same conclusion re. both BVH and 3rd nose sloped dash. In the 80's I actually had that car, a blue 1971 DS21 Pallas BVH with black leather interior which I got for a song (deceased estate). I wasn't really in the market for a car at the time because I had a good registered DS23 but I ended up liking this car a lot. I'd forgotten how much I liked the BVH until reading feedback to this thread. I don't know what persuaded me to part with this vehicle or even who it went to, I may have traded it on the CX I ended up with.
    I'd like that car back now, the DS that is. The CX was OK but never had the animal magnetism of the D's.
    Someone suggested looking overseas (LHD model) which doesn't faze me. I converted an ID20 to RHD once and from memory it wasn't that difficult even although I found out the hard way that you can't just take the LHD steering rack and flip it!
    I think also your comment about taking time for this quest might be time well spent.
    There are the occasional restored cars available, one right now on Carsales.com.au, but I'm nervous about how much can be hidden in a restoration. An honest car such as Shane's restoration project (apart from the LHS2 changeover) is my hope.
    I'm now sure I don't want to end up with a precious 'concours' condition vehicle but an 'occasional use and enjoy the drive' car with minimum bonnet opens and maximum 'find a new bit to improve it' car.
    It's looking like:

    DS21
    3rd Nose
    Sloped dash
    BVH
    This is not 100% firm but:- Leather; sort of leaning to Tabac in colour. Therefore Pallas but not Pallasised.
    Minimal rust.

    Not too fussed about engine condition, I've done rebuilds.
    Gearbox functional and not requiring major work
    Hydraulics, functioning but I'm comfortable with doing a complete refurbishment in this department if need be.
    All 'bits', even if they come in a cardboard box.

    Anybody out there know where I can find one?

    Iain



  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    The DS had so many variants over the 20 years, but, you could literally die waiting for your desired colour to come along.
    Everything is completely serviceable, so there are two primary choices.
    1. Citromatic or manual.
    2. LHM or LHS
    If you don't have a copy of the Reynolds "DS restores guide", would be a wise $100 investment.

    Citroen DS Restore Guide CAR Auto Automobile Part Collector DIY Vintage Photo | eBay

    Did I say $100.00 ..........on a good day.

    But then again, condition is probably the determining factor when sourcing a car that is 40 years old.

    MB

  18. #18
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    Slopey dash and Tabac leather? An anachronism I suspect. Black or Naturel leather, but Tabac arrived after the slopey dash finished apparently. Tabac is the darker brown leather. So, you are presumably after a 1968/9 model. I don't think there are a lot to choose from. I gather a total project is out of the question, so it would eliminate a few prospects requiring total restoration.

    p.s. That book on eBay is the reprinted softcover version.
    Last edited by David S; 3rd December 2013 at 06:49 PM.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    ...........but Tabac arrived after the slopey dash finished apparently.

    I realised that. Because I'm not after Concours I'm prepared to customise... to a degree. If I find, say 2 cars or a car and a wreck with a lovely interior, then that'll do. I don't want to customise to an unrecognisable degree but I'm fully prepared for the 'tragics' to find the occasional misdemeanour. I may in fact even paint non-original although I like Gris Nacre. That lovely blue/grey (Parisien's?) is also a front runner at present.

    Iain

  20. #20
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    OK, I just wanted to point out that you are unlikely to find that combination in an as is car, so it's either a case of accepting something different or making it yourself. It's your car, so paint it and trim it however you want. Some of the original colours are not that flattering, so choosing something non-original can be a good move.

    If you are after a total project with the correct basic specs (21 BVH etc.) then you would have more options to begin with, but it could obviously involve a great deal more work and expense than you anticipate.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    No rush..... but.
    For those of you who are Small Business Entities (SBE) whose annual turnover is less than $2 million dollars, it's important you read the following information regarding accelerated asset deductions and the changes taking effect from January 1st 2014.
    Immediate deduction for motor vehicles
    The $5,000 immediate deduction for motor vehicles acquired by SBEs will be removed from 1 January 2014. As above, SBEs will have until 31 December 2013 to qualify for the $5,000 deduction by acquiring and using a motor vehicle for business use by this date. This applies to new or second hand vehicles primarily used for business purposes.
    addo likes this.

  22. #22
    Member Pommiefrog's Avatar
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    I was very much in your boat... And like you i made a list of my ideal D. However, I found that the ideal D was the D that found me... As soon as I saw it I knew it felt right. I am pretty sure the same will happen to you.

    I was lucky as she had all the spec I desired apart from leather (DS21, BVH). I could see the advantages of having either efi or carb but efi won just becase that's what the car I found had. With respect to my interior, it's a gold fabric colour and I really like it. Again, all pros and cons.... You can't really go wrong as the car will find you I'm sure rather en the other way around....
    Regards,

    George
    Leicestershire, England
    1971 DS21 EFI, Pallas, BVH, Blog:http://www.mypallas.net

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Again, all pros and cons.... You can't really go wrong as the car will find you I'm sure rather en the other way around....

    I am beginning to suspect this. Is this why these cars, like boats are called 'she'?

    Iain

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! ScotFrog's Avatar
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    Hi All, well looked at my first prospect today. 1974 d- Special and came away with my hands firmly in my pockets. Tell me I did the right thing somebody.
    The car looks sad, smells sad and feels sad. On the downside the panels all show a ilittle bit of bubbling rust but may only be local and not affecting significant areas. The boot is fibreglass, the first I've seen. Rust on the hull at first glance looks surface only with exception of near side 'c' pillar and rear parcel shelf. Boot rear panel has been repaired/replaced but badly at some time. Front offside bumper has been caught with a careless reversing collision, you can envisage the distortion, only 20mm or so but a bitch to straighten I'd imagine.

    Engine is sweet and hydraulics looked acceptable but new style spheres. Minor water pump leak from drain point. Underside of car is generally oil damp but has only helped to keep the tin worm at bay. No major leaks obvious.

    Interior is almost complete (no headrests on press stud fasteners), just a bit tired. Carpets and trim all crying out for replacement.

    The major concern is the offside passenger door caved in, but glass ok. Still opens but catches the glass at the the roof juncture point. Looking closely here the roof looks to be either partly sprung from the hull or the 'b' pillar has moved, distorting this region by pulling it down away from the roof and towards the collision with the glass, I'd say about 6mm.

    My question is, given nominal evidence of rust do I move on and wait for a better prospect?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotFrog View Post
    Hi All, well looked at my first prospect today. 1974 d- Special and came away with my hands firmly in my pockets. Tell me I did the right thing somebody....
    What was the attraction? It's not exactly the 21 BVH Pallas with sloping dash and leather trim you said you wanted ... although with enough parts and effort you could probably make it closely resemble one.

    The door glass stops are adjustable, so they may have moved upwards rather than the frame being bent. If the B-pillar is bent enough to pull the roof down, then you'd have had the same problem with the glass on the front door and had trouble closing both doors.
    Last edited by David S; 14th December 2013 at 11:20 PM.

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