How to remove transmission on a Citroen C5 2.2HDI
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Thread: How to remove transmission on a Citroen C5 2.2HDI

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    Default How to remove transmission on a Citroen C5 2.2HDI

    Hi everyone,

    I found out that my torque converter is slipping and I'm about to remove my transmission, but I am not sure how to do it. I am at the wreckers atm and trying to remove the transmission from a peugeot 406 as they also have a 4HP20 and I want to use the one I am working on. I don't have to care to much about the car at the wreckers, but it will be a different story once I have to do it on my car.
    Do I have to drop the subframe on my Citroen C5, because thats what I am doing at the peugeot and I hope it will make the job easier.

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    If anyone has done that job and can give me some advice, I would really appreciate it. I will do the job in my garage and I only have car stands and two big car jacks.

    I will go back to the wreckers tomorrow and try to get the transmission out.

    Thanks for your help

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    Drop the subframe after unbolting the steering rack, take care to prise all cable and pipe clips off their studs on the subframe. Don't forget to crack the driveshaft nuts beforehand.

    From a time saved viewpoint, it may also be quicker to remove engine and box together then split on the floor.

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    Thanks,
    I will try and do that. Do you know if the transmission of a peugeot 406 is suitable for a citroen c5?

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    You should get the donor VIN and use that for the transmission ID. Then compare to your gearbox's subtype.

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    When you say subtype, is that like 20ZH20? That would be the number on my transmission. I forgot to look what it says on the donor transmission, but I think it is 20ZH26. I guess I will just take it out and hope that I can make it work. I don't have the $6000 for a rebuild so I need to make it work

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    Yours is HZ20. The subtype reflects final drive.

    Ideally you'd swap the affected gears to preserve designed shift points for your car's ECU, but I realise this may not be practical in your situation.

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    I just got back from the wreckers and took the transmission. It is a HZ07 and as far as I can tell from the transmission oil, it is in really good shape.
    So far I compared the transmission in my car with the one I bought and I think the mounting holes are identical. The one from the wreckers has a dip stick which my transmission doesn't have and my transmission has some sort of protective frame mounted to it from underneath that the other transmission doesn't have
    Does anyone know if I can just put the one from the wreckers into my car or are there things, like the gear ratios, that will be different?
    Also when I took the car out at the wreckers I didn't have to care about the donor car so much, but that will be a different story when I do it on my car. Can anyone give me an idea on the steps I should follow to remove my transmission and put the other one in.

    Thanks guys

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    You should get the donor VIN and use that for the transmission ID. Then compare to your gearbox's subtype.
    Hi CitC5,
    Perhaps you should take Addos' advice here and get the donors VIN and check the details of the transmission. Also it will give the actual year etc of the car so you can have some facts to compare. If you do not know how to check the Vin details of your car and the Vin detais of the 406 on the PSA web sites I am sure someone on here will do it for you, IF YOU GIVE THE TWO VIN NUMBERS.

    Cheers Jaahn

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    Thanks Jaahn and Addo, I didn't write down the vin number of the donor car and now just have the transmission details. I was hoping the information on the transmission would be sufficient. I guess I might have to drive back to the wreckers. I wrote an email to A&B Transmissions in Dandenong, because the transmission I found is one that was remanufactured by them. They should know if it will fit my car.

    Cheers CitC5

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    I think the gear ratios will be different and have you checked the drive shaft splines for compatibility. There are several ways of removing the trans on the C5 depending on your ability and equipment, but in my opinion, removing it with the motor only creates extra work, it's a hard enough job just for the trans. Did you support the converter correctly when you removed the box, otherwise you may quite probably have damaged it or the pump, but in any case it's mandatory you replace the input seal and drive shaft seals.
    How did you arrive at the diagnoses of converter slipping?. Wouldn't it be cheaper to replace the converter with a rebuilt or new unit. And best of luck with Email to R&B. Cheers

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    Hi CitC5
    I could copy the relevant pages from the manual if you like. You should have a manual anyway ! PM me your email if you want it.
    Jaahn
    PS a slightly different diff ratio will not be a big deal. The speedo will be the biggest problem if there is a big difference, the change would not be great I would think.

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    Hi Shanadoo,

    When I removed the transmission at the wreckers I dropped the subframe and disconnected the transmission from the engine on the ground, so I don't think I damaged the pump. I have no idea about the drive shaft splines and will probably figure that out ones I have removed my driveshafts. Also how can I remove the transmission without at least lowering the engine? That is why I thought I might as well drop it and do the work ones it is all on the floor.
    I got to the conclusion with the slipping torque converter through reading in forums and bringing the car to A&B in Dandenong. They are zf transmission specialists and diagnosed it. If I wanted to replace the converter ($400 + shipping from aliexpress) I would have to take the tranmission apart to clean it from possible metal contaminents and I think the transmission I got for $120 is in very good shape. Do I have to change the seals even if the look good and which one is the input seal?

    Thanks Jaahn, I sent you a PM.

    Cheers guys, I really appreciate your comments.

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    Well removing the motor is up to you, but think of all the other things you will have to undo including removing the radiator, because you will damage it, guaranteed . Put a jack under the sump using a thick piece of wood to prevent damage, undo and remove one bolt from engine end on the lower engine torque mount then undo the bolts holding the gearbox to the chassis mount and lower away, it won't need much. It should be the last operation before trans removal. I never take the drive shafts off, only slip them aside, same with the RH d/shaft stabilizer mount on the side of the engine, just undo the 8mm bearing retaining bolts and slide the shaft outward enough to disconnect it from the trans. Cut a couple of wooden wedges to support the converter during removal and refit, they can be removed from the bottom after. Seals must be replaced, they've been disturbed and will leak for sure otherwise. The input seal [converter seal/ input seal, on the pump, pull off converter and you'll see it, care needed when replacing this seal. NOTE seals are one directional so do not turn the converter anti clock after fitting. Oh and do not swamp the seals with oil, there's a good chance they will glaze on start up and probably leak. Use love lube, that stuff you put on the bedroom door knob to keep the kids out. Vaseline. Cheers

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    Thanks a lot Shanadoo,

    the piece of advice is really helpful, especially the small details, like the love lube and that the seals are directional. Wouldn't have had a clue.
    I will start collecting the parts tomorrow and probably start the job as soon as possible. So far I have two lower balljoints, two driveshaft seals and the input seal on my list and 10L of the transmission fluid. I will also get the special ball joint socket to replace the ball joints.
    I will report how everything went and I hope the ECU doesn't need reprogramming after replacing the transmission.

    cheers

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    T&E Tools have a number for the the balljoint socket, which is common to many Pugs, but eBay ex-UK is probably a pragmatic choice. I seem to recall David Cavanaugh at French Connection saying he has them too. Make sure you support the car securely and set the suspension to low before you start pulling it apart as it needs the battery to operate the hydraulic pump unit. Otherwise, you would have to depressurise the suspension manually. Another trap is that it will go to economy mode and then you may not be able to operate things like the windows until you restart the engine, which you won't be able to do if it's in bits!

    Try to limit the angle on the driveshafts as it's possible to displace a spring cup in the joint. This definitiely applies to early 6 speed 2.0HDi C5 with original driveshafts, but I have a memory of a similar potential problem afflicting some 4 speed 2.2's.

    While you are there ... check the condition of the bushes on the lower control arms. I would expect them to fail before the balljoints. So, if you've pinned a wander on the balljoints without actually checking them for excessive play, look carefully at the bushes on the control arms. Once they become soggy, the car can feel all over the place above about 60km/h.

    Aside from the C&P ratio possibly being different, the converter may be different. You need to check as it's likely to cause you grief once you've done all the spannering. The C&P ratio for the 20HZ20 is apparently 23x66 as used with the DW12TED4. The 4HP20 used with the petrol V6 is a 20HZ13 with a 20x69 ratio.
    Last edited by David S; 3rd December 2013 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Typo with C&P for HDi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    T&E Tools have a number for the the balljoint socket, which is common to many Pugs, but eBay ex-UK is probably a pragmatic choice. I seem to recall David Cavanaugh at French Connection saying he has them too. Make sure you support the car securely and set the suspension to low before you start pulling it apart as it needs the battery to operate the hydraulic pump unit. Otherwise, you would have to depressurise the suspension manually. Another trap is that it will go to economy mode and then you may not be able to operate things like the windows until you restart the engine, which you won't be able to do if it's in bits!

    Try to limit the angle on the driveshafts as it's possible to displace a spring cup in the joint. This definitiely applies to early 6 speed 2.0HDi C5 with original driveshafts, but I have a memory of a similar potential problem afflicting some 4 speed 2.2's.

    While you are there ... check the condition of the bushes on the lower control arms. I would expect them to fail before the balljoints. So, if you've pinned a wander on the balljoints without actually checking them for excessive play, look carefully at the bushes on the control arms. Once they become soggy, the car can feel all over the place above about 60km/h.

    Aside from the C&P ratio possibly being different, the converter may be different. You need to check as it's likely to cause you grief once you've done all the spannering. The C&P ratio for the 20HZ20 is apparently 59x68 as used with the DW12TED4. The 4HP20 used with the petrol V6 is a 20HZ13 with a 20x69 ratio.
    Hear and obey my friend. There's a lot more to it than meets the eye. There's probably a few C5 about still on blocks after the owner ran into trouble doing things like swapsies. Good luck.

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    I was thinking of replacing a lot more parts from the steering assembly while I am on it, but I don't have the money atm. I am student and have a limited amount I can spend. I bought the car on ebay without knowing that the transmission would let me down so soon. Was my own fault, but I wanted to drive a Citroen again. I used to have a '77 GS and loved the car, if it wouldn't have been for the rust.

    I will take your advice seriously and check if the control arm bushing are giving up. They will have to wait though and as far as I can tell from the driving behaviour of the car, it all seems fine. I am just changing the ball joints, because I am likely to damage them when removing the control arm from the suspension (and it says so in the manual). I will take my time with the job and see how it goes. And it seems like you guys have an open ear in case I run into problems

    thanks guys

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    You're not likely to damage the balljoints unless they've been abused prior. The "two hammers" method or a variant thereof, will normally separate them. Worst case you damage the boots with a splitting fork, buy $5 generic ones from Bursons and slip on with plenty of fresh moly grease. There are some Falcon boots which look interchangeable down to the wire ring.

    I don't think David has got the final drives right; one or the other is a typo.

    As to the rebuilt box; I have an A&B AL4 in my Xantia (as bought); it has always been noisy (think taxi type gearbox noise) and shifted a bit harshly but has not become worse over 160 000km of hard use. I think they started with a well-worn gearset or non-matched final drive to get that much gear noise. It was the attitude of A&B that made me decide to never deal with them again; I would have a converter rebuilt in the UK instead.

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    I just got a reply from the ACC forum and a guy got the following info from the citroen hotline:

    Organummer (DAM) 10467 CJ 1 0118
    Datum Garantiebeginn 23.03.2006
    OPB A03T
    KRAFT‹BERTRAGUNG (Force conversion) BVA4
    GETRIEBE (MERKMALE) (Transmission) BVA 4HP20
    ‹BERSETZUNGSVERHńLTNIS (Gear ratio) ACHSANTRIEBSRADSATZ 23X66
    TACHOANTRIEB (Speedo) CT 22 X NO


    I will have to deal with A&B once more, because the have the best price on the transmission fluid. I will probably have 3L left over, in case somebody needs some fluid.

    I will have a look at the ball joints today and see. New once are $35 each, so that is not too bad, but if I can just replace the rubber boots I will do that
    Just have to find a place to get the oil seals. I guess once I have them out I can go to any shop that is specialised on seals and get them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post

    I don't think David has got the final drives right; one or the other is a typo.
    Yes, I incorrectly edited my post. It should be 23x66 for the C5 2.2 HDi.

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    Just got done preparing everything today. Will need to buy a 34 or 36 mm socket, I thought my 32 mm socket would do but I guess I was wrong. I also found out that the transmission from the wreckers was completely empty. I am a bit confused why the transmission+torque converter had no fluid in it. Well I will put it in and see...hopefully the guy didn't drive his car around without transmission fluid

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    You're not likely to damage the balljoints unless they've been abused prior. The "two hammers" method or a variant thereof, will normally separate them. Worst case you damage the boots with a splitting fork, buy $5 generic ones from Bursons and slip on with plenty of fresh moly grease. There are some Falcon boots which look interchangeable down to the wire ring.

    I don't think David has got the final drives right; one or the other is a typo.

    As to the rebuilt box; I have an A&B AL4 in my Xantia (as bought); it has always been noisy (think taxi type gearbox noise) and shifted a bit harshly but has not become worse over 160 000km of hard use. I think they started with a well-worn gearset or non-matched final drive to get that much gear noise. It was the attitude of A&B that made me decide to never deal with them again; I would have a converter rebuilt in the UK instead.
    Fully agree about A&B. On ball joints, for what you're doing I wouldn't undo them, pull the inner bolts from the wishbones and let them hang. Then you can inspect the bushes without doing any extra work.
    Think minimalistic undo only what is neccessary for the job in hand, why go looking for more worries and expense.

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    The lack of oil is a big worry, I would investigate why before fitting the trans. Could be an oil leak and it's been driven to a standstill maybe. Very suspicious. You may find non genuine seals hard to get. The equivelent seals are not directional rated so you take a chance by fitting them, because they're weaker on the actual seal lip. But I've used them and haven't had a comeback yet. But I don't trust them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citc5 View Post
    Just got done preparing everything today. Will need to buy a 34 or 36 mm socket, I thought my 32 mm socket would do but I guess I was wrong. I also found out that the transmission from the wreckers was completely empty. I am a bit confused why the transmission+torque converter had no fluid in it. Well I will put it in and see...hopefully the guy didn't drive his car around without transmission fluid
    Hi Citc5
    I would be suspicious when I found that. I would chase it up BEFORE doing any more work fitting it. You cannot drive an auto without oil because it cannot drive after it looses maybe 2 liters of oil. So where has the other oil gone. Where has the lost oil gone as it should be everywhere if it leaked. Look into it as its not a normal thing to expect from a wrecked car. I usually let my instincts guide me when I am buying used car stuff and my instincts tell me to look carefully here.

    Wreckers vary in their responses but they really cannot know the history of the car before they purchased it. If it came from an insurance writeoff auction then you would expect the car was driving up to the accident. Otherwise the car may have come from anywhere including a repairer who started a job and the customer decided to walk away from if as it was not worth repairing for some reason Was the car damaged or not ?
    jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 4th December 2013 at 10:24 AM.

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    Wreckers are obligated in most cases, to drain the drivetrain components of fluid before putting vehicles in the paddock for "open slather" by the unwashed. Engine, gearbox, diff, fuel tank, cooling system.

    I would not let the lack of fluid worry me too much.

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