Petition to the CitroŽn management against the ending of hydropneumatics
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Thread: Petition to the CitroŽn management against the ending of hydropneumatics

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Default Petition to the CitroŽn management against the ending of hydropneumatics

    Pťtition : Contre l'abandon par PSA du systŤme hydropneumatique CitroŽn

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting this Gerry.

    I guess it had to come. Cost pressures, better roads in France, end of the C6, weaning owners off it with springs on some C5 models. But they made it work from scratch back in the 1950s - what an achievement - and used it for very nearly 60 years. So a big part of automotive history comes to an end.
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    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I am enraged. Subaru continue to make 4 wheel drive cars and use the advantages to market their product. Must cost them more but they seem to think it is worth it. Could be the same with Citroen. I wonder what the difference in cost would be for a the 4 wheel drive system compared to the hydropneumatic system. In both cases since the engineering has already been done not much difference I would think. Citroen used to have a highly automated factory making the components for the system.

    The result has already played out in my purchase of a new car. We went and drove the C4 eHDi, but we went there in our Xantia. It was a unanimous decision with my wife and I. The car we already owned was better even though 13 years old. As we wanted something a lot more economical and environmentally responsible so we went elsewhere as you can see, just like Gerry
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    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    Without the hydropneumatique suspension they become just another car. Then they will lose some of their customers and have to find new ones by producing cars that have the edge on rival producers. I'm sure that is much harder to do than really effective marketing of the only thing to differentiate them from just any car - the hydropneumatique suspension. It is amazing that this is not 'the' focus of their marketing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Thanks for posting this Gerry.

    I guess it had to come. Cost pressures, better roads in France, end of the C6, weaning owners off it with springs on some C5 models. But they made it work from scratch back in the 1950s - what an achievement - and used it for very nearly 60 years. So a big part of automotive history comes to an end.
    Better roads in France may well have reduced the ride advantage on Hydropneumatics though there are many other markets n the world where drivers endure third world standards of road maintenance... Sydney for instance.

    There are other advantages though which have possibly become more significant. Aerodynamics are greatly enhanced by ensuring a constant angle of attack and ground clearance. I would have thought also that as more attention is now placed on reducing vehicle weight ( and the weight of the average passenger increases) there is increased difficulty designing a suspension system which can produce good results with a wide range of payloads.

    I suggest the BX is a great example of intelligent application of self levelling. The original BX had a kerb weight of only 900 kg and a payload of 465 kg. The car remains stable and comfortable over it's entire load range. In addition the car won numerous awards as a tow vehicle and the estate version could haul over half a tonne plus driver.

    I doubt that steel springs could come anywhere near that without making huge compromise.

    PS Did you see the link I put in another thread to the new Paul Mages web site? Lots of very interesting video plus details of the gestation of Hydropneumatics. Everything you could want to know about the man and his system.

    Paul MagŤs pŤre de l'hydraulique chez CitroŽn
    Last edited by michaelr; 27th November 2013 at 03:10 PM. Reason: PS... added link
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    They have not made real Citroen SINCE X series BX,CX,AX, etc....
    In my opinion, there is no point buying Citroen now because they are not really Citroen. Pugeot own the company and they are very business minded....Hydraulic= cost too much= no sale. And no point if there is no Hydraulic suspension(What Citroen makes so special!) DS range looks good but they might be just another Citron not Citroen.
    Last edited by caparobertsan; 28th November 2013 at 01:14 PM.
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    The CX is the last real Citroen and apart from the X in the name bears absolutely no relationship tp BX or AX. It is a flow on result of the GS design by Robert Opron and was laid down in the last years of Michelin control. It continued to be made well into Peugeots administrative domain and was retro fitted with some Peugeot motors ( Reflex and Athena variants of the CX ). However it remains a true Citroen just like the D and Traction Avant series before it.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Damn ! Here I am after 40 years of espousing the advantages of riding on spheres, and the benefit of great directional stability, and having a non interested wife looking at Shane's post about why we love our CXs, and they plan to pull the pin ! My wife was amazed and thankful for the way she could avoid a nasty collision because of the way the C5 stopped a few weeks ago, and finally had to concede, from her OWN experience that the complexity had some real benefit....and now the carpet is to be pulled out from under us.. we loyal rusted on consumers...A Citroen without spheres is just another potentially annoying Euro .. so why not buy a Subaru or a Toyota instead..... after all we have already lost the powered brakes ( and maybe the electronically governed system is good anyway ) and real Citroen powered steering ( again the electro - hydraulic system is good enough ).
    Shot themselves in the foot methinks.

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    Anybody know about the patent restrictions ??? With Hydro rear ended Tractions being released in about 1953, maybe 60 + years later the patent can no longer be retained...It was permitted under licence to Rolls Royce ... and BMW and Mercedes have/had their versions of it.
    Maybe some more consumer oriented manufacturer will pick up the trapped gas and flexible membrane and hydraulic piston/pushrod plan.
    Could we perhaps buy a sphere suspended Camry or Outlander ??? or dare I muse upon a Hyundai i ### something !!!

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    The BX is not a real Citroen? Last time I looked it had spheres just like a D, CX and SM and oh yeah a badge that says Citroen, and height correctors and octopus. I guess then under all the rules of NOT being a real citroen you should dismiss 2CV and Hvans cause they don't float on oil. I'll tell you what makes a real Citroen "passion for a unique company and desire to keep and mantain a very special vehicle" regardless of who desiged which part. If it has a badge Citroen then its a bloody Citroen. To think that citroen is only 1 or 2 models us just stupid. The original owner of my BX Estate paid $45, 000 for it and in a small way helped Citroen and PSA survive. XM's Xantias C5's C6's are all real Citroen's so get over it.

    PS: after reading the partition I'm sorry but I find it too aggressive to sign.

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    Well the Prius has fully powered brakes. All Toyota have to do is keep going with the idea.
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    Perhaps, PSA might be asked to restart Model T manufacture, but this time with hydropneumatic suspension???

    As for a 'real Citroen', do we say the cut off is the Pug takeover? The Michelin takeover when the founder was ousted? Or some mechanical configuration? Or manufacture of parts outside France? Or non-French factories? Sticking a Citroen badge on an ASX or a baby Toyota is probably pushing a hole in the envelope though.

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    Real citroens were those models that garnished fierce owner loyalty, whatever models they are. If the Citroen brand loses that loyalty, then they are no longer producing real citroens. On the other hand, do the younger car buyers know this and do they even care?

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipperman View Post
    The BX is not a real Citroen? Last time I looked it had spheres just like a D, CX and SM and oh yeah a badge that says Citroen, and height correctors and octopus. I guess then under all the rules of NOT being a real citroen you should dismiss 2CV and Hvans cause they don't float on oil. I'll tell you what makes a real Citroen "passion for a unique company and desire to keep and mantain a very special vehicle" regardless of who desiged which part. If it has a badge Citroen then its a bloody Citroen. To think that citroen is only 1 or 2 models us just stupid. The original owner of my BX Estate paid $45, 000 for it and in a small way helped Citroen and PSA survive. XM's Xantias C5's C6's are all real Citroen's so get over it.

    PS: after reading the partition I'm sorry but I find it too aggressive to sign.

    Via the aussiefrogs App
    The BX XM Xantia etc. that followed Peugeot's takeover are mostly built with Peugeot components. They have Peugeot floor pans front and rear ends modified to accept Hydro-pneumatic suspension and Peugeot Motors and gearboxes. So this is the end of Citroen design purity. It is for this reason that they are not considered by many to be a true Citroen. But you can think what you will!
    Oh and by the way Citroens do not have to ride on Hydraulic suspensions to be a true Citroen. They just have to exhibit the qualities of original and innovative thinking to uphold the design philosophies that have made the marque one of the all time greats!
    Sadly I feel that today the company is a follower rather than a trend setter!
    Last edited by gerrypro; 28th November 2013 at 04:53 PM.
    Cheers Gerry

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    What makes a Citroen floor pan so desirably superior, as against other floor pans?
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nota View Post
    What makes a Citroen floor pan so desirably superior, as against other floor pans?
    No shitty strut suspension (that falls through the bonnet) for starters ............... Center point steering anyone

    My wife has a 407 ... if that's what they call suspension, they can go shove it where the sun don't shine. No travel, rough as guts ... shitty geometry so it does the shitty "crappy suspension dance" if the wheels spin. The CX suspension is superior in EVERY aspect... Not rose coloured glasses, it's immensely superior in every single way.... We are going backwards at a hell of a rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post

    Center point steering anyone
    Which disincludes CX, apparently.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nota View Post
    Which disincludes CX, apparently.
    That was fast .... i was waiting for it
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    Well maybe Subaru could pick up the patent , that would be different flat four or six cylinder four wheel drive and spheres all round for comfort on or off road.

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    I do not know what is going on, it is not cost, decisions made by accountants & economists, not engineers/designers.

    Most of the posher Citroen cars sold are diesel I understand, they have removed the brakes from the main hydraulic system, THEN HAD TO PUT IN A VACUUM PUMP FOR THE BOOSTER, manifold pressure does not go low enough. Almost certainly more expensive.

    When you look at the suspension system, where is the extra cost?
    Spheres vs steel springs, very little in it I suspect.
    The hydraulic rams that hold the suspension in place are virtually identical to shock absorbers, cost about the same.
    Hydraulic pump, need one for power steering anyway, cost difference nil.
    What is extra is a bit of pipe from the pump & reservoir to the spheres & height sensors, not a lot there.

    Note also that a range rover model now offers hydraulic suspension.

    adg123

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    I believe Subaru in the Japanese market have already offered a vehicle with airbag springing..now that would be a great compromise. All the gaseous flexibility, possibly height variation as well and none of the potential for hydraulic leaks. Airbag technology is pretty mainstream on heavy trucks and trailers nowadays, and in the US street car scene where stupidly adjusting ride height between left and right sides is possible for "pose value".

    We can only hope that in the departure of hydropneumatics, straight pneumatics will become available. The electronic control systems are already there ( I don't believe PSA actually build their own logic units ... Olivetti comes to mind ) ... so a Hydractive quality pure pneumatic arrangement could be on the drawing boards already .. after all it was an option as a suspension medium on the rear ends of Picassos.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzelhund View Post
    I believe Subaru in the Japanese market have already offered a vehicle with airbag springing..now that would be a great compromise. All the gaseous flexibility, possibly height variation as well and none of the potential for hydraulic leaks. Airbag technology is pretty mainstream on heavy trucks and trailers nowadays, and in the US street car scene where stupidly adjusting ride height between left and right sides is possible for "pose value".

    We can only hope that in the departure of hydropneumatics, straight pneumatics will become available. The electronic control systems are already there ( I don't believe PSA actually build their own logic units ... Olivetti comes to mind ) ... so a Hydractive quality pure pneumatic arrangement could be on the drawing boards already .. after all it was an option as a suspension medium on the rear ends of Picassos.
    Now that is something I would like to see. A company that is adventurous enough to take its own path in automotive development. A concept that Citroen under Peugeot guidance has lost!
    Cheers Gerry

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    More lateral thinking ... with the Chinese Dong Feng connection maybe just maybe a Chinese builder ????

    Just been researching the Subaru air suspension topic .. it is all pretty simple stuff really for those of us who have grown up on hydropneumatics. ...... and probably without the precision of manufacture required by hydraulics. Air springing kits for a Forester retail in the US for about $4000 with all bits, including compresor, storage tank, airbag struts and switchgear and reed valving.

    Subaru are not without some history of oddball ( read unconventional ) thinking...frameless windows ( a la DS ) flat boxer engines ( see GS or 2cv ) even early flat fours had 2 radiators that meant a water pump wasn't required .. just sequential opening controlled by thermostat and an electric fan. Now all we need is to convince somebody about centre point steering and inboard brakes and M. Citroen will be a technical dead end.

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    The real Citroens certainly did suffer from tin worm more than the unreal ones.
    Didn't know the CT turbo motor was also used in a Peugeot.
    No hydro suspension will count me out for purchasing a modern Cit. Suggest those with a hydro models celebrate cause they have just increased in value.

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    1000+ Posts arunine's Avatar
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    I guess one of the big down sides to oleopneumatic suspensions is the the access to people who can regas spheres and the availability
    of spheres and LHM, especially if you live in areas outside cities with agents and tinkerers.
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