DS High pressure pump outlet line leak
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default DS High pressure pump outlet line leak

    Hi,

    I have just replaced the HP pump on my 1970 DS with a refurbished pump from Europe.
    I now have a leak from the connection on the bottom of the pump to the outlet line. It appears to be coming from the thread of the connection.

    Is anyone able to tell me if a new rubber seal is needed? I can't find any reference to this anywhere, but I'm hoping this is the case as I don't fancy what the alternative repair could be

    Many thanks
    Dean

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deano View Post
    Hi,

    I have just replaced the HP pump on my 1970 DS with a refurbished pump from Europe.
    I now have a leak from the connection on the bottom of the pump to the outlet line. It appears to be coming from the thread of the connection.

    Is anyone able to tell me if a new rubber seal is needed? I can't find any reference to this anywhere, but I'm hoping this is the case as I don't fancy what the alternative repair could be

    Many thanks
    Dean
    Definitely yes to 6.35mm pipe seal, I'm surprised your reco pump didn't come with the seal supplied?
    Citroworld | Dé webshop voor al uw Citroën auto-onderdelen (Citroën DS, H, HY, HZ en 2CV) en speciale gereedschap

    You should be able to source in NZ, ask on the http://www.ds23.co.nz/ forum for a local supplier

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

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    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deano View Post
    Hi,

    I have just replaced the HP pump on my 1970 DS with a refurbished pump from Europe.
    I now have a leak from the connection on the bottom of the pump to the outlet line. It appears to be coming from the thread of the connection.

    Is anyone able to tell me if a new rubber seal is needed? I can't find any reference to this anywhere, but I'm hoping this is the case as I don't fancy what the alternative repair could be

    Many thanks
    Dean
    if you need to use the car, just try turning the seal around ... i've never used new seals, it's incredibly rare to ever have a problem. more likely you'll find the seal has either been munched on assembly or has fallen out

    seeya,
    Shane l.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    if you need to use the car, just try turning the seal around ... i've never used new seals, it's incredibly rare to ever have a problem. more likely you'll find the seal has either been munched on assembly or has fallen out

    seeya,
    Shane l.
    Shane's right.. Far more likely the seal was damaged when you fitted the pump.

    It's super easy to do- I went through the removal/refitting process a couple of times with my regulator because I damaged the seals.. As Shane said, you can flip it round and use the "undamaged" end- otherwise do what I did and buy some stock of the assorted seals- makes it much easier next time round!

    Toby

  5. #5
    Tadpole
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    Thank you so much Chris! No unfortunately there was no seal with the new pump.
    That's going to save many hours awake trying to figure out how to fix it!!
    Regards Dean

  6. #6
    Tadpole
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    Thanks very much Shane.
    There is no seal in sight so it must have fallen out somewhere along the line.
    Thanks for your help!
    dean

  7. #7
    Tadpole
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    Thanks Toby,
    Please forgive the dumb question which is about to follow-
    Does the seal just slide over the end of the outlet pipe, or does it need to be positioned inside the outlet area of the pump?
    Many thanks, Dean.

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    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deano View Post
    Thanks Toby,
    Please forgive the dumb question which is about to follow-
    Does the seal just slide over the end of the outlet pipe, or does it need to be positioned inside the outlet area of the pump?
    Many thanks, Dean.
    No such thing as a dumb question.
    Put the seal inside the pump outlet, it will be much easier.
    Do NOT lubricate the seal.
    Gently and carefully guide the pipe into the pump orifice.
    Make certain the tube is right in the centre of the orifice.
    The tube nut should easily thread on, for at least a few turns.
    Don't overtighten, you'll damage the seal.
    Job done.

    Now, have a squizzy at the STICKY at the top of the forum. There's one titled manuals containing links to manuals.
    Or... The manual thread
    Follow the links, download a manual appropriate to your model and keep it on your computer.
    Also download #844 Hydraulics Course, it will assist in the future understanding how these things work.

    Hope this helps.

  9. #9
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    No such thing as a dumb question.
    Put the seal inside the pump outlet, it will be much easier.
    Do NOT lubricate the seal.
    Gently and carefully guide the pipe into the pump orifice.
    Make certain the tube is right in the centre of the orifice.
    The tube nut should easily thread on, for at least a few turns.
    Don't overtighten, you'll damage the seal.
    Job done.

    Now, have a squizzy at the STICKY at the top of the forum. There's one titled manuals containing links to manuals.
    Follow the links, download a manual appropriate to your model and keep it on your computer.
    Also download #844 Hydraulics Course, it will assist in the future understanding how these things work.

    Hope this helps.
    Agree, as my old guru used to say "no such thing as stupid question, but there are certainly some stupid answers. . ."

    I'd just like to add to richos elegant answer and say if you don't already have in your tool kit - get a set of metric 'Flare nut spanners' make it a priority. Too often used are open ended spanners and all too often the flats on nuts are rounded off to the point where you are faced with an expensive repair.

    Cheap sets can be had on ebay

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    And another little thing, next time you go to loosen a hydraulic nut, fractionally tighten it first (clockwise) so it breaks any corrosion, so you have less resistance when you undo, ( anti clockwise) just a little twist should do it, WD it first too! They can a right bastard otherwise and you can ruin the nut in no time, said from experience!

  11. #11
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    If you need a flare spanner in a hurry, take an appropriate ring spanner and carefully grind an opening in it to allow it to fit over the pipe.
    Actually to do this properly without risk of injury, you should use a hacksaw to cut the ring, but last time I did this I was in a hurry, & I didn't have access to a vice.
    My choice, is to use an expensive spanner for the job, cheap ones deform over time. Yes, I do have a shed full of tools (& junk), & I have multiples of everything. Garage sales are wonderful for collecting tools. Markets often ask too much.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    DS High pressure pump outlet line leak-pipe-seal.jpg
    Michael
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Most Ring spanners are 12 point. If you made a flare nut spanner from a ring spanner you would need a 6 point ring. Why bother though when most Auto outlets ----Repco--- Bursons --- Supercheap etc. can sell you a set of inexpensive flare nut spanners for very little money.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Most Ring spanners are 12 point. If you made a flare nut spanner from a ring spanner you would need a 6 point ring. Why bother though when most Auto outlets ----Repco--- Bursons --- Supercheap etc. can sell you a set of inexpensive flare nut spanners for very little money.
    True, but my nearest auto outlet was a 20 minute drive away, & the car wasn't working. Taxi fare @ $24.00+ each way, makes it an expensive exercise. The joys of country living!
    I agree a 6 point ring is perfect, but a good quality 12 point ring (if used carefully) works well too. Of course that depends on how the last mechanic treated the nut.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Ebay May solve your problem ----Here is one example-----
    Toolpro Spanner SET 5 Piece Flare Metric | eBay
    $19.99 and free postage!
    Cheers Gerry

  16. #16
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    As a rebuilder of pumps, steering racks and all things hydraulic with D series cars here in the US I have just one thing to say. DO NOT reuse the seals on the outlet of the pump and inlet to the PR. You are playing with a possible disaster. The problem is the possibility, though remote, of a rubber filament/fragment getting into the PR. If that happens there are three endings. If you are lucky it will pass though and wind up in the main reservoir. If you are a bit unlucky it will lock the the PR's internal slide valve in its by-pass position and the car will not build up pressure. If you are really unlucky it can and has jammed that by-pass valve in the 'pressure' position. When that happens it can either be force through the PR and all will be OK. If it is not - my condolences.

    Those 7 pistons pumps are, in theory, capable of infinite pressure. In reality that is limited by belt slippage and possible mechanical failure of either internal pump parts or those of the PR. When this has happened in the past it is the cause of those 'urban' legions of the main accumulator sphere being blown off the bottom of the PR. To do this requires lots of pressure.

    If one needs to reuse either of those two seals in an emergency, then you carefully trim off any torn/broken parts on the nut end of the seal and turn end for end, ensuring that the opposite end is also smooth and clean. Then at the earliest opportunity replace with fresh seals. And they are quite easy to make from the correct metric sized rubber tubing and an Exacto blade (Buna-N for LHM/EPDM for LHS). Reusing them is false economy and for that matter reusing any of the line seals is false economy given how easy they are, and cheap, to make.

    I know of two instances, personally, in the US market where the main has been blow off of the PR due to this very stunt. And believe me, you do not want to any where near the car when this happens and with substantial damage to the car in the process. I have had it happen to me on my test bench checking non-function regulators for customers 4 times in the past 6 years. In 3 of those cases the rubber 'bits' had stuck the PR's internal slide valve in its 'by-pass' position. With the 4th case the PR was in 'by pass' mode and then in it started to act 'normal'. Watch the PR's internal pressure start to rise and after it reached 2450+psi (nominal cut off pressure) the pressure started to build up at an alarming rate - faster than I could have reach the manual control switch. My overpressure switch was tripped (set to shut down the electric drive motor) at 4500 psi. Took about 2 seconds to go from 2450psi to 4500. Took around 20 minuets for my heart rate to return to normal. Now, would have that 4th one cleared itself? Have no idea and, frankly, have no desire to every find out...............

    Steve
    Last edited by Citroenfan; 20th November 2013 at 05:33 PM.

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    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Citroenfan knows all about disasters. He gets to see lots of them.

    Via the aussiefrogs App

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    True though - those little rubber fragments can jam things up. I had a BX FDV that got a piece of rubber stuck in it after a midnight side-of-the-road PAS hose repair, and that played hell with the hydraulics.

    Although not as religious about using new seals, I am always damn careful to make sure that any damaged seals are trimmed properly before reinstalling.

  19. #19
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    You can lead a horse to water Steve….

    Matthew

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    Hi Matthew,

    Methinks another way to put it - Ignorance can be bliss . I am always reminded of what my father use say, in a humorous way, about their 61 ID - "There is no such thing as a 'minor' problem with a Cit" .

    Steve

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    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    Hi Matthew,

    Methinks another way to put it - Ignorance can be bliss . I am always reminded of what my father use say, in a humorous way, about their 61 ID - "There is no such thing as a 'minor' problem with a Cit" .

    Steve

    So that explains why he is so hopelessly obsessed with these cars! His dad taught him to look for all the hard stuff first!
    When my dad had hard stuff, he just made me do it instead of him.
    Come to think of it, I think Steve's dad did that to him too.

  22. #22
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    So that explains why he is so hopelessly obsessed with these cars! His dad taught him to look for all the hard stuff first!
    When my dad had hard stuff, he just made me do it instead of him.
    Come to think of it, I think Steve's dad did that to him too.
    I had no such education. Dad was an Oldsmobile man, and that was the way it was going to be, by God!
    Needless to say, I'm such a disappointment.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Yo Bill,

    You may be a 'disappointment' dude, but we all still love ya

    As to fathers - Is that not the way it is suppose to work?????

    Steve

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