2005 1.6L pluriel 5spd auto gearbox locked in gear
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 32
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: 2005 1.6L pluriel 5spd auto gearbox locked in gear

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    geelong
    Posts
    58

    Default 2005 1.6L pluriel 5spd auto gearbox locked in gear

    Hey all

    My dad has owned a 2005 Pluriel 1.6l 5 spd auto from new that just locked up in gear one day after I think a shortish course of gearbox faults...

    I think the shop tried checking the solenoids and clutch etc and found no faults, and so they believed the fault was within the gearbox, dad said that a rivet on the selector shaft has probably failed and caused the lockup...

    Advertisement


    Has anyone here had this fault and done the repair, is there a walk through somewhere, or even a citroen service supplement regarding the gearbox teardown inspection and repair. Also does disassembly of the gearbox to repair this fault require precision measurements or replacement of destroy-on-dismantle components? AKA can you do a quick tear down and fix the problem or do you need to do a hectic rebuild / remeasurement of clearances/bearings etc etc

    I have rebuilt saab gearboxes so I am familiar with the bits etc it's just a 5spd sensodrive is a different beast. I assume that it is more or less a manual design with automatic clutch & selector system... ?

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    9,670

    Default

    There is a rivet that could let go on a selector part to cause this problem. Replace it with a bolt and peen it or buy new selector parts. It's an MA5 gearbox inside with the electrical clutch and shifter bits added, so it's not so unusual. Anyone able to service a Berlingo/Partner box should have little trouble with this one apart from the Sensodrive gear, which really needs a dealer or at least someone with a Lexia and the jig to set up the clutch actuator. You'd need to pull it apart to get at the selector, so you probably want to plan on doing the clutch and a bearing kit at the same time. Even if it's not making unpleasant noises, you'd be well advised to do this to change the pinion bearing, input shaft bearing and clutch release bearing while you have the opportunity.

    These documents include information about removing the actuators so you don't damage them, but don't tell you how to overhaul the gearbox and get it back on the road:
    http://service.citroen.com/dtt/CDP/d...us_t1_2005.zip
    http://service.citroen.com/dtt/CDP/d...us_t1_2004.zip

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    geelong
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Hey thanks for the advice

    I think the shop is going to give us the lump - gearbox + clutch mechanism, then I will strip down the gearbox side. Then we return it to them and they can set up all the adjustments for the actuators etc. I think the shop was happy with that plan as they didn't want to tear down the unit.

    are you talking about the dowel in the gear engagement selector finger?



    It seems like the bearing kits aren't too unreasonably priced so replacing the trans bearings seems like a good option. Are the precision measurements that need to be observed as a result of replacing the bearings or is it all self aligning etc...

    The car is likely to be sold I think, I will look into the price of clutch/bearing bits.

    Are there aftermarket clutch kits or is it all OEM

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    9,670

    Default

    The rivet joins two parts of a selector together. It will be obvious where it's failed if that's the problem.
    The clutch and gearbox actuators are expensive items, so read the instructions before removing them.
    You will need a press to change some of the bearings and might have trouble with some shallow Torx bolts.
    I gather you have found some MA5 instructions then? It would provide any measurements needed, but I think it's pretty much a case of throwing it together. You certainly wouldn't have any final drive adjustment issues as you would with a Traction or DS gearbox.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    geelong
    Posts
    58

    Default

    hey the shop will remove the clutch/selector actuators, they are just giving us the box/clutch I assume

    I haven't found a MA5 manual yet.

    The press isnt a problem, I do have a 10t press..

    Thanks for your help I really appreciate it...

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    geelong
    Posts
    58

    Default

    hey so I got around to stripping this gearbox down

    I have the case off and the gearstack/shift assembly exposed.

    I had to do a fair bit of wriggling to get the case off and I was holding onto the selector shaft which was jammed in position. Somehow during the wriggling the thing righted itself and I could select gears.

    Anyway I tore it down ,and it does not appear that any dowels/roll pins have fallen out or come loose... Hmmm

    I can select all 5 forward gears and reverse, but when I try to move the selector tang horizontally ( between the reverse/5th 1st/2nd and 3rd/4th engagement gates it jams up, also there is a gap between the 1st/2nd and 3rd/4th engagement gates which the selector tang can actually go up and get jammed between... I don't get how this is happening...?

    I'll take some photos

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    geelong
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Ok so it was the failed rivet, I thought when people were talking about it - it was a roll pin that failed, but it was the rivet holding the shift fork to the shaft. so I can just replace this with a loctited bolt/nut ?















    Have all the old bearings off, the old seals have been removed, now I just need to pick up some replacements, clean the cases/bolts/components and reassemble it.

    I need to buy 2 new circlips from Citroen, as well as a synchro muff centering ball bearing (5.55mm diameter apparently - I will check to see if the bearing shop has them - dropped the muff and the bearings exploded out with the springs - luckily I found the springs but could not find one of the three ball bearings ... I will look more tomorrow.

    Also need to buy the input seal housing assembly - looks like I can get them from ebay for $25 delivered. A bit of a strange design!

    Anyone know the part number for the rubber seal that goes between the 5th gear cover and the main cover ? couldn't find a P/N for it....

  8. #8
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Don't remind me!
    Posts
    16,609

    Default

    Have you tried "One Stop Gearbox Shop"? They will likely have a complete bearing and seal kit on the shelf, name brand bits. Postage is often faster than Australian interstate.

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    9,670

    Default

    Well done! Use a nut and bolt for the repair, but I'd suggest you also punch or peen it so it can't come undone.
    You should certainly change the clutch release bearing and both the input shaft and pinion bearings, even if you decide to refit some of the other parts. There is a service kit of seals and bearings, so you might price them along with a clutch kit. Try the dealers, but also Dapco and EAI etc.. The ball should be available from a bearing shop, but some dealers/workshops may have one from a dead Berlingo gearbox.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    geelong
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Hey thanks for your replies,

    I am going to replace all the bearings because I've removed them all from their shafts... The 2 diff seals + the input seal assembly I will definitely also replace. I will order a clutch release bearing as well as the original is very worn...

    A question about the diff seals, one of them has a very large lip, do I have to get one like this, or will a standard seal be ok?

    Citroen Saxo 5speed manual MA gearbox bearing / seal rebuild kit | eBay

    I cant seem to find an equivalent kit that ships to Aus... This has almost everything I need....

    I also need (prob from dealer if I cant get a kit)
    - 1x 5.5mm synchro ball bearing (lost)
    - selector detent assembly (damaged)
    - housing gasket 221126
    - input seal assembly 210538

    >>>??? - (not sure if I need to replace)
    - pin 250916 (selector)
    - pin 696855 x2 (shift forks)

    do I need to replace the dowel that holds the selector mechanism onto the selector shaft (because I drove it out with a punch) or can I just replace (and? loctite?) Also do I need to replace the rollpins I drove out from the shift fork assembly or can they be re used?

  11. #11
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Don't remind me!
    Posts
    16,609

    Default

    Seriously, just phone them - it'll save you the £19 VAT at least. I'd be surprised if the other bits aren't to hand.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    tweed heads
    Posts
    1,483

    Default

    Strange how that has broken ,almost like metal fatigue ,i had three stainless steel rivets holding the blade onto a ceiling fan brake in a similar manner ,caused all kinds of excitement for the two couples sitting under it having a cup of tea ,the blade just shot off and hit a wall, the fan now having one less blade ,was wobbling all over the place ,one of the old guys had to make a dash for the controller to switch it off no shinny bits on the brake just sheered straight through the 3 of them .pugs

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    18,752

    Default

    Fan blade failure as you describe is well known.

    If the rivets are a little loose or not clamped properly the turning on and off of the fan causes rivets securing the fan blades to become loose.

    Once this happens the centrifugal force of the blades bearing on the rivet shank acts like cold chisel and eventually the rivets fail.

    Essentially it's poor design holes too big due to production tolerance and probably aluminium rivets. We had one cut loose of Christmas day in our old house. The blade became a scimitar and toppled the Christmas tree.
    Some M5 cap scews with nyloc nuts on all blades fixed it.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    geelong
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Just phone who? one stop gearbox shop? Ok Ill look into it! It is ridiculously cheap, but to get it sent here might cost $50-$100 due to weight...

    These rivets seem to be machine peened at the factory, and I guess for that to be possible they are just regular steel not hardened in any way. the sensodrive engagement is pretty forceful based on how much torque I had to apply to shift it by hand and I'm not all that suprised they fail after looking at them and how the mechanism works (when you make hundreds of thousands of shifts).

    The engagement is much more difficult than the saab 900 manual gearbox selector mechanism I'm familiar with..

  15. #15
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Don't remind me!
    Posts
    16,609

    Default

    Yes, that business. Worth asking for a price on everything you need, packed into in one box. Freight will be about £55 from my experiences, but you should have it on the bench by Friday.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Albury
    Posts
    154

    Default

    And you can really get all those parts back together in the same order that they in were originally?

    I'm veeeery impressed! ;-)

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    geelong
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Just an update

    got a seal/circlip/bearing kit from one stop gearbox shop in the UK, 140 pound ($280) delivered (3-4 business days) much cheaper than Citroen about $650 for all the same bits..., has all the parts I need, except for the detent ball, got that for 30 pound ($58) delivered from uk (was going to be $26 but take 3 weeks)

    should have the parts by next week and have it back together before new year.

    Will take a few quick snaps of the rebuild process.

    just gotta sort out this broken shift fork pin, planning to just do the bolt/nut method - with loctite, and I'll press/peen the end of the bolt thread to prevent the nut coming loose. Should be permanent.
    addo likes this.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    geelong
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Anyone know what type of oil and how much needs to go in the MA5 gearbx?

    in other news

    cleaned up all the case parts, and removed the old loctite from the bolts/threads.

    hpe the bearings come tomorrow so I can get things underway!

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! CC1701's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Melbourne, Sendai
    Posts
    126

    Default

    perhaps a bolt and a Konelock nut to replace the broken shift fork pin. there is a fair bit of load and vibration on that little pin, its not a big diameter. loctite may deteroriate inside the gear box environment (hot oil and all that).
    Konelock (its a brand name) nuts are designed not to come undone, and they dont.
    don't want to have nuts and bolt rattling around in your newly rebuilt gearbox.

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    geelong
    Posts
    58

    Default

    was just going to loctite and then stake the nut/thread... my other option was to braze the nut to the bolt.... I will look into konelock nuts ,where are they available from?
    I also considered a lock washer but thought it was a bit clunky...


    I have all the parts from overseas so the thing is going to be reassembled after boxing day. - Am I right to use loctite 518 on the maincase flange (anaerobic sealant) for getting it back together or should I use silicone like the factory>? ....

  21. #21
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    10,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by s900t8v View Post
    was just going to loctite and then stake the nut/thread... my other option was to braze the nut to the bolt.... I will look into konelock nuts ,where are they available from?
    I also considered a lock washer but thought it was a bit clunky...


    I have all the parts from overseas so the thing is going to be reassembled after boxing day. - Am I right to use loctite 518 on the maincase flange (anaerobic sealant) for getting it back together or should I use silicone like the factory>? ....
    If you google "conelock" not "Konelock" you'll find Australian suppliers.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  22. #22
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Don't remind me!
    Posts
    16,609

    Default

    As to the case sealant, it needs just a little "give" so the Loctite ought to work (almost looks like Hylomar in consistency). Plus it's a snazzy red colour - raspberry cordial FTW! I'd probably use Threebond 1211 but only to not let a tube go off, that had been bought to seal engine covers.

  23. #23
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    geelong
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Reassembly today!

    I didnt take photos but I did new crown wheel/diff bearings first - reinstalled the intermediate plate with blue loctite...


    Just doing a dry run of the selector mechanism, to make sure everything was arranged properly.


    pinion and cluster shaft bearings installed - gearstack cleaned and lubed


    Stacks assembled into case


    Another shot


    Another shot with the Loctite 518 after cleaning the flanges with cleaner.


    Case installed


    5th gear and lay 5th installed . The circlip on the lay gear was a real pain to install, Had to put it in the press to compress the thrust washer.

    Broke the reverse light switch installing the maincase over - didn't realise at the time, but then when I moved the case I heard a tinkle and boy did my heart sink lol! The little die cast metal press button of the switch broke off into the case, luckily I was able to shake the bits out (don't ask me how - that gearbox is heavy!) all the pieces match up and the spring was still in the switch when I removed it so was very lucky I didn't have to tear down the case to retrieve the shrapnel... lol

    It seems like a generic switch so should be easy enough to obtain another! luckily it is a simple install..

    So its all buttoned up now, a full overhaul, selects all gears beautifully, new seals, bearings, circlips/thrust washers and selector detent...

  24. #24
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Don't remind me!
    Posts
    16,609

    Default

    Reverse switch is 2257.53 and used from late XM through to current C5 models. Even genuine is $20-ish posted. I think (for once) Fleabayers "walkerboy" are price competitive - normally they're out of contention against paragonpug.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Linton.Victoria.
    Posts
    1,204

    Default

    Sure you did not mean a manual-looks like one to me unless I cannot see something-Interested that is all.

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •