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Thread: C5 Aisin Warner 6 speed automatic

  1. #51
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    Jeez Greg if you're gonna get pedantic, I'll get pedantic-er. It's Aisin AW, not Aisin. There, got that sorted.

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    Cheerio,

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  2. #52
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    Sorry I thought I said it wasn't Aisen Warner... Am I wrong?
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  3. #53
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    Their name:

    Aisin AW (Formerly Aisin-Warner; Joint Venture with BorgWarner terminated in 1987) — automatic transmissions

    Best regards,

    Greg
    electroboy likes this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  4. #54
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    With my C5 X7 up to 80k km, my regular french mechanic would not change the gearbox oil, instead referring me to the well-known and by all accounts very good local auto specialist.

    They asked if I wanted a change or a flush. I said that I would get back to them.

    I can understand the difference, and assume that only a change is needed, which said would be about $250. Is it a DIY job? How hard can it be that an actual french car specialist mechanic would not do it?
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  5. #55
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    It's not that hard a job at all really. Some basic tools required, including a 17mm hex (mega allen key). Hoist or ramps and some minor farnarkling.

  6. #56
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    There's a good French how-to for changing the AM6 at https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2013/05/2...idange-bva.pdf. Electroboy translated it on AF a while ago, but his link now appears to be dead.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dijon16 View Post
    How hard can it be that an actual french car specialist mechanic would not do it?
    I think where it starts to get hard for the mechanic is deciding which oil to put in it. If, as some suggest, you only use the genuine Citroen product then the price would send the customer reeling! (especially if flushed). To avoid this, they may use one of the generic brands. But, assuming you don't already have problems with your transmission and they subsequently develop, how does the mechanic respond to why they didn't use genuine oil. If you already have problems and the generic oil doesn't help, then you will be left wondering if the genuine oil would be have been better?

    Then there is the issue of whether they just change 3 of the 7 litres of oil or try to get most of the 7 litres flushed out. Obviously the former has price advantages but if the oil contains contaminates, then the latter would be more practical.

    Spoke with the local auto transmission specialist at length only last week and basically he left choice of oil to me and he gave no assurances that jerky gear down-changes would be fixed by flushing. It could ultimately need a new valve body (problem started at 40k), in which case it would be just "good money chasing bad".

    I can understand a mechanic's indifference.
    Last edited by turnbull151; 20th May 2017 at 06:51 PM.

  8. #58
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    i dont know a great deal about the 6 speed auto but I have had to replace valves bodies in 2 customers cars in the last 12 months to fix shifting issues
    the valve body metal is about as hard as soft cheese and the spools have signs of wear at 160k, i think the best way to make them last is to change the oil every 60k and drive it in manual mode so it doesn't do so many gear changes just to get to the shops and back
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  9. #59
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    I have changed mine twice so far at 60kkm intervals. The problem with a change is that you only change 2 litres of the total 9 or so litres in the box. So I actually did it twice each time so the I got half new oil into the box. The original oil was pretty awful at 60kkm.

    If I were you I would go for a flush job as that should change out all the old oil and then get you new fresh oil going through your valve blocks. I have used Penrite Fully synth ATF as have many others and so far so good at 150kkm. The improvement in smoothness after the first change at 60kkm was marked.

    Cheers, Ken
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  10. #60
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    Boy Younger has 2000 model Commodore, 270,000ks and never had a auto oil change and never even needed a top up. Asked me just before Xmas to do a service on the trannie. Told him he was dreaming. It has no problems, changes/drives as good as it ever did, so what do you think would happen if the oil and filter were changed at this mileage.

    I guess it's human nature which makes people wait until problems arise in a mechanical component and orders them to spend a week or more discussing it before throwing multiple oil changes at the thing in the oft mistaken belief that that will rectify the problem and return it to 'as new'. Whereas to quote 'The problem is not the problem, the problem is the attitude to the problem'.

    These days it's common to observe a problematic or even complete negative attitude toward preventative maintenance, so most can understand any mechanics reluctance to the request of an auto oil change.
    It's always best to decline and pass any occurring after problems on to some brave soul better equipped and willing to risk all.

    A little tip if you're broken down on the road?. Remember to completely flatten the battery before calling the AAA.

  11. #61
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    Hi Guys,

    Just to confuse the issue, this is the oils Citroen sells for the AM6 gearbox as follows:

    2.0 HDI, 2.7 HDI, 3.0 EFI, part no 9730AF (29.44 Euro per litre in France)

    2.2 HDI, 3.0 HDI, part no 9734R7 (37.10 Euro per litre France)

    Evidently, oils aren't oils?

    Best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  12. #62
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    Thanks for those comments. IIRC, the flush was going to be a lot more expensive.

    It is just for preventative maintenance. There are no current issues with shifting. It has been known to flare into 2nd, but I felt that that was more to do with how I was treating the accelerator then with the box itself. Accelerate differently, it shifts differently.

    I sometimes use it in manual, esp when towing a box trailer of several hundred kg, and I wonder if this places undue stress on the gearbox, even though the manual says it can take up to 1.5t braked.

  13. #63
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    Since prev post, about an hour, have done some reading up on this bollocky subject. More I read, more confused I get!

    It seems that people have been contributing to similar threads for years, since 2008 when the gearbox was first used in this car.

    It is used in many other common vehicles, and ALL the other makers say to change the fluid every 30 000 miles. In such a deliberate attempt at planned obsolescence, it is only sealed for the life of the warranty, not the life of the gearbox. How this can be legal in this day and age of consumer protection is beyond comprehension.

    Adding to the confusion is this double drain plug - do you undo both? Is there any resetting of metrics? One site said this:
    "every time the oil is changed the "oil counter" MUST be reset - the box is adaptive and needs to know about such things as it makes a huge difference."

    One other site had a spew that people were using S/S or F/S oils, reckoned that the specs say it should be mineral.

    How have DIYers refilled it - with a long hose? How slowly? Do you have to run it first after to replenish all the galleries etc?

    This is the first auto I have ever owned, in 40 years of driving.

  14. #64
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    Filling a transmission is made easier by one of these C5 Aisin Warner 6 speed automatic-trans-funnel.png

    The instructions are in the link I posted (the car in the pics has a 6 cyl engine). You measure what is drained, so you know how much to put back. A full drain in one go isn't going to happen. The original fluid is made for Aisin and sold through dealers - each manufacturer who uses the box (PSA, Volvo, Toyota, etc) sets a different price, with wild variations. In some markets abroad like USA they sell the Aisin brand. Some AFers use a local brand Penrite product, some don't.

    You can also read the official Cit handbook for the 2008 C6 at http://service.citroen.com/dtt/CDP/d...C6/2008_C6.zip from p144.

    If you don't read French, online translators will make a reasonable hash of it.
    Last edited by seasink; 22nd May 2017 at 10:00 AM.

  15. #65
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    That is the most comprehensive instructions I have seen, along with the often seen other one:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/fjzkad6g7i...0copy.pdf?dl=0

    So you have to have at least the right tools, figure out the difference between 3308 and 3309, a diag box to measure the oil temp in the first place, as well as being able to access underneath with the vehicle level, accurately measure the output as well as the input, and possibly reset the oil usage counter.

    Bugger that, off to the auto trans specialist.

  16. #66
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    I've just put the Lexia (official Citroen) instructions up for draining & refilling the AM6 (for my 2007 C5 Hdi) on Dropbox - can somebody tell me if this link works for them?

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/r58hzmgsbq...M6%29.pdf?dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/r58hzmgsbqgq6p0/C5%20II%20-%20B2CI14P0%20-%20Draining%20-%20filling%20-%20level%20%3A%20automatic%20gearbox%20%28type%20A M6%29.pdf

    On the second link I've tried dropping off the '?dl+0' at the end of the link if that makes it easier for some to download...I don't understand this link stuff.

    Cheerio,

    Geoff
    Last edited by electroboy; 23rd May 2017 at 08:26 AM.
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    Cheerio,

    Geoff (in Mirboo North)


    1994 405 SRDT white - (free to a good home, unreg. & needs injector pump re-fitting)
    1997 Toyota Hilux Surf
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    2003 Merc Vito 112Cdi
    non-sequitur - 1951 Hudson Pacemaker brush-painted matt black!

  17. #67
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    Electroboy,

    It views and downloads for me but I do have another dropbox account. It even accords with my experience having done it a couple of times on the C5X7. The only bit it misses is what you have to remove to get access to the drain and fill points. I must get my diagbox and reset the oil counter to see if it makes any difference.

    Cheers, Ken W

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    Electroboy, I get crap javascript spoiling it.
    It downloads successfully with wget --no-check-certificate but needs the trailing ?dl=0 removed.

  19. #69
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    Thanks Ken. Dropbox tells me the file should also be visible to those who don't have Dropbox installed - we'll see!

    Re: resetting the oil counter to zero. I didn't reset mine the first time I changed the oil and I don't believe it made any difference when I did get around to resetting it a week or two later. I find it hard to believe the behaviour of the gearbox would be significantly changed as a result. I reckon it's there for maintenance scheduling more than anything.

    Geoff
    Cheerio,

    Geoff (in Mirboo North)


    1994 405 SRDT white - (free to a good home, unreg. & needs injector pump re-fitting)
    1997 Toyota Hilux Surf
    2007 Citroen C5 Hdi Wagon
    2003 Merc Vito 112Cdi
    non-sequitur - 1951 Hudson Pacemaker brush-painted matt black!

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Electroboy, I get crap javascript spoiling it.
    It downloads successfully with wget --no-check-certificate but needs the trailing ?dl=0 removed.
    Jeepers Seasink, that's all Dutch to me! Do you mean I should edit my message and remove the ?dl=0 from end of the link?


    Geoff
    Last edited by electroboy; 22nd May 2017 at 10:58 PM.
    Cheerio,

    Geoff (in Mirboo North)


    1994 405 SRDT white - (free to a good home, unreg. & needs injector pump re-fitting)
    1997 Toyota Hilux Surf
    2007 Citroen C5 Hdi Wagon
    2003 Merc Vito 112Cdi
    non-sequitur - 1951 Hudson Pacemaker brush-painted matt black!

  21. #71
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    wget is an internet standard downloader. It will get the file complete provided it is asked not to check the site certificate, which cannot be verified, ie do an insecure download. Other downloaders like curl give the same warning. The pdf file arrives ok with or without the trailing suffix. On my secured browsers however, the file only partly displays at download - a result of the javascript.
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  22. #72
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    One thing I noticed with this AM6 (Aisin AW TF80SC) gearbox is that when a bit worn, gear changes were still perfect before it gets up to full temperature (around 80ļ-81ļ in my car). Before replacing the valve block, I briefly considered fitting a remote oil cooler using this adapter to run the box cooler and forestall the inevitable. Now my box is working beautifully - but I am still thinking about it as a future addition:

    Remote cooler adapter Aisin TF60SN TF61SN TF70SC TF80SC TF81SC AW50-55SN JATCO | eBay

    As I understand it, some cars use a remote oil cooler (Volvo IIRC) with this gearbox as standard equipment. I reckon it's bound to help with longevity, makes a full 'flush' type fluid change easier too since hoses can be easily accessed.

    Thoughts?
    Greg likes this.
    Cheerio,

    Geoff (in Mirboo North)


    1994 405 SRDT white - (free to a good home, unreg. & needs injector pump re-fitting)
    1997 Toyota Hilux Surf
    2007 Citroen C5 Hdi Wagon
    2003 Merc Vito 112Cdi
    non-sequitur - 1951 Hudson Pacemaker brush-painted matt black!

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by electroboy View Post
    I've just put the Lexia (official Citroen) instructions up for draining & refilling the AM6 (for my 2007 C5 Hdi) on Dropbox - can somebody tell me if this link works for them?

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/r58hzmgsbq...M6%29.pdf?dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/r58hzmgsbqgq6p0/C5%20II%20-%20B2CI14P0%20-%20Draining%20-%20filling%20-%20level%20%3A%20automatic%20gearbox%20%28type%20A M6%29.pdf

    On the second link I've tried dropping off the '?dl+0' at the end of the link if that makes it easier for some to download...I don't understand this link stuff.

    Cheerio,

    Geoff
    Works for me without problems Geoff. I only have latest Firefox. No Adobe, No drop what its. Cheers.
    electroboy likes this.

  24. #74
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    A cheap funnel, selected length of 20mm clear fuel hose, a plastic hose joiner [going into the gearbox end] and a couple of spring on hose clips, all ex Bunnings, about $8. Works for full flow filling. Cheers.
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  25. #75
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    Nothing wrong with that, but my purpose made transmission funnel cost even less.
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