now I see what influenced the DS styling
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Thread: now I see what influenced the DS styling

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    Fellow Frogger! deesse's Avatar
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    Default now I see what influenced the DS styling

    This is the 1952 Muntz Jet. An american car. It has some similarities to the DS don't you think? though the Muntz was first.



    there were a couple of hundred made



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    even the same colours



    food for thought.

    I wouldn't mind a Muntz Jet in my garage.

    cheers Tony

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    Agreed that one can see/make out similarities but to say/infer that the D "resulted" from the Muntz Jet is another story.

    Whilst I'm new to the classic Citroen, I do know that the D goes far beyond styling to have any association with the Muntz.

    Others that know of the history of the D may be able to comments as to its evolution D.

    Nevertheless, I too like it.

    JAJEA

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAJEA View Post
    Agreed that one can see/make out similarities but to say/infer that the D "resulted" from the Muntz Jet is another story.

    Whilst I'm new to the classic Citroen, I do know that the D goes far beyond styling to have any association with the Muntz.

    Others that know of the history of the D may be able to comments as to its evolution D.

    Nevertheless, I too like it.

    JAJEA
    I've always seen philosophical similarities between the early Tatra 77's and 87's that predated the DS by a decade.



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    Bertoni and Lefebvre were working on a successor to the Traction Avant as early as 1948, and drawings exist showing how the shape was evolving. The aerodynamic styling of the DS stems more from Lefebvre's background in aeronautical design - Bertoni translated ideas and applied his own styling.

    Pictures exist of the 1923 Voisin C6 Course (reconstruction) in comparison to an early DS and they show remarkably identical design principals of low centre of gravity, long wheelbase, weight distribution and aerodynamics. Lefebvre worked for Voisin before he worked for Citroen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    Bertoni and Lefebvre were working on a successor to the Traction Avant as early as 1948, and drawings exist showing how the shape was evolving. The aerodynamic styling of the DS stems more from Lefebvre's background in aeronautical design - Bertoni translated ideas and applied his own styling.

    Pictures exist of the 1923 Voisin C6 Course (reconstruction) in comparison to an early DS and they show remarkably identical design principals of low centre of gravity, long wheelbase, weight distribution and aerodynamics. Lefebvre worked for Voisin before he worked for Citroen.
    CitroŽn DS prototypes The birth of a Goddess 1

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    The Voisin Laboratoire was I believe designed by Lefebvre for Voisin and has some hints of what was to come, even the narrow rear track.:
    now I see what influenced the DS styling-voisin_laboratoire.jpg Andre_Lefebvre

    Voisin also produced some fantastic sedans, one of which is in Jay Lenno's collection, along with a DS and SM:
    now I see what influenced the DS styling-voisinc-25aerodyne.jpg Jay Leno's Garage - Blog Listing
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    <old man voice on>

    The young people of today and their internet searches. Back in my day we just got off our butts and went to our book shelf and found the book.

    <old man voice off>

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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    <old man voice on>

    The young people of today and their internet searches. Back in my day we just got off our butts and went to our book shelf and found the book.

    <old man voice off>

    You flatter me with the label "young" (he says in an even older man's voice) but to be fair I was aware of these Levebvre designs from my reading having worked my way carefully through the library of the Citroen Car Club NSW, but I could hardly post a book now could I ?

    By the way, the library (of both books and tools) is yet another reason to join the CCCNSW, not just for buying LHM at a great price. The coffee and cake after the meetings adds immeasurably to the privileges of membership too.
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    My brother had a Jowett Javelin a 1950 job for several years, I would think that the Muntz Jet and the Tatra 77 and 87 copied the Javelin, then the French with the other thing so called the "D", further they were coppies of the Jowett Javelin.
    Tony

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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    <old man voice on>

    The young people of today and their internet searches. Back in my day we just got off our butts and went to our book shelf and found the book.

    <old man voice off>

    It is doubtful that back in the old days you could even find a book written on the subject of Citroen history and development. I believe that Sabates 'Grand Livre' was the first----not available until the seventies!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by scarfjoin View Post
    My brother had a Jowett Javelin a 1950 job for several years, I would think that the Muntz Jet and the Tatra 77 and 87 copied the Javelin, then the French with the other thing so called the "D", further they were coppies of the Jowett Javelin.
    Tony
    Jowett Javelin (an impressive car in many ways) was post war, Tatra 77 and early DS design work was pre war. There were many design studies around the tear drop shape in the thirties.
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    Not bad for 1934
    Tatra 77
    now I see what influenced the DS styling-250px-t77_advertising-2.jpg
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    I think the only possible influences on the DS would be the Tatras and the very few other aerodynamic cars that followed the ideas of Paul Jaray, and that very small. The main reason the DS, and the CX and GS look good is that aerodynamics are taken seriously and drive the design. Modern cars are boring because they don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    The main reason the DS, and the CX and GS look good is that aerodynamics are taken seriously and drive the design. Modern cars are boring because they don't.
    Agreed, but the wonderful thing abut the DS is that although Levebvre was uncompromising in his desire to apply his aerodynamic experience to the new Citroen production car this was then filtered through the creative skills of Flaminio Bertoni. Look again at the photo of the DS and the Laboratoire together and you see the clothing of science in art.
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    I didn't mean to leave Bertoni out of it. Aerodynamics can't totally shape the car, it has to fit people luggage etc. The genius is in reconciling all these things, but I still think the reason they look right is because they are right.
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    Default DS styling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Subite View Post
    thanks for this link, very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    I think the only possible influences on the DS would be the Tatras and the very few other aerodynamic cars that followed the ideas of Paul Jaray, and that very small. The main reason the DS, and the CX and GS look good is that aerodynamics are taken seriously and drive the design. Modern cars are boring because they don't.
    I think the car designers would disagree, the DS is not very aerodynamic by todays standards, I assume the very upright windscreen may be the main culprit, the SM on the other hand fairs a lot better against modern cars. Whereas the Tatra T77A holds it's own.
    Automobile drag coefficient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Harley

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harley View Post
    I think the car designers would disagree, the DS is not very aerodynamic by todays standards, I assume the very upright windscreen may be the main culprit, the SM on the other hand fairs a lot better against modern cars. Whereas the Tatra T77A holds it's own.
    Automobile drag coefficient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Harley
    It would be interesting to get an expert opinion on what is, and what is not, good about the DS aerodynamics. It sure is a complicated science!

    Whilst I don't think it fair to compare the DS to more modern designs I suspect that in many ways the Citroen measures up quite well. Certainly it has a higher CD than most modern cars but it took companies like Ford 27 years to match it (Sierra 1982) and I find even my 80"s BX is more susceptible to cross winds than a DS, though that may be weight related too.

    Possibly the CD difference is largely down to detail design. The Audi advantage in 1983 (CD = 3.0) was I believe largely due to flush glass, gutterless construction and other detail improvements. In this respect the DS suffers from deeply recessed glass (especially the windscreen), inefficient mirrors, exposed windscreen wipers and so on. Maybe a "shaved" DS would prove even more advanced?
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    Since this thread is looking at design history it seems an appropriate place to mention this:

    Anyone using google today will have noticed it was Raymond Loewy's 120th birthday. Who was Raymond Loewy? If you look at this collection of photos you will find you recognise much of his work, and if you are American he is part of everyday design language.

    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=R...Loewy&tbm=isch

    Any NSW Citroen Club members who were at Wings Over Illawarra air show this year will have noticed the strange car which got parked amongst the Citroens, an Avanti. It was almost bizarre enough to have been a Citroen! The following site is an interesting read:

    Curbside Classic: 1963 Studebaker Avanti ? Flawed Brilliance

    OK, so maybe Loewy did not have the grace of ( some of) the Bertoni/Levebvre designs, but he certainly pushed the envelope.
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    It would be interesting to get an expert opinion on what is, and what is not, good about the DS aerodynamics. It sure is a complicated science!

    Whilst I don't think it fair to compare the DS to more modern designs I suspect that in many ways the Citroen measures up quite well. Certainly it has a higher CD than most modern cars but it took companies like Ford 27 years to match it (Sierra 1982) and I find even my 80"s BX is more susceptible to cross winds than a DS, though that may be weight related too.

    Possibly the CD difference is largely down to detail design. The Audi advantage in 1983 (CD = 3.0) was I believe largely due to flush glass, gutterless construction and other detail improvements. In this respect the DS suffers from deeply recessed glass (especially the windscreen), inefficient mirrors, exposed windscreen wipers and so on. Maybe a "shaved" DS would prove even more advanced?
    I am not an expert on aerodynamics but I believe that the above quoted figures for Cd involve an analysis of the boundary layer flow that was not included in the Cx ratings used for aerodynamics in Europe. In aviation there are devices know as turbulators that deliberately disturb the boundary layer flow. It evidently assists in producing better laminar flow characteristics over the main body of an aerofoil. The lip of rubber around a DS windscreen would produce just this effect and should not be seen as a negative characteristic. ( Turbulators are often used on the leading edge of an airfoil section). Also when analysed in conjunction with the flow over the bonnet the windscreen whist introducing a change in the flow is not as sharply inclined into that flow as one might suppose. With these considerations involved it is easy to see that the Citroen claim for a Cx figure ( not Cd which is a different set of test parameters) of .31 is justified. I believe that the European Cx testing is a better analysis of functional aerodynamics. The CX series claims .30 for the Cx rating as does the GS. Yet in the Cd ratings the GS is stated as being .06 better than the CX at .36 Cd. Obviously there are:- Lies ,Damned Lies and Statistics.
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Problem for the factory figures for the CX, GS and the Tatra is they were done on 1/5th scale models. A model won't have everything hanging down underneath like it does in the real cars so it will always do better. The GS X3 got the real world figure down to .318. It had a few extra things like spoilers front and back

    Aerodynamics

    As said in the article, aerodynamics can't be everything about the design of the car, amongst other things stability in crosswinds was a factor that was considered. That is an issue as you reduce the drag. Take my Prius, currently about the best with a Cd of .25. Even though they mention a few points like a fin under the back to help with crosswind stability it is nowhere near as good as the CX. Obviously Toyota are prepared to wear a little more sensitivity to crosswinds in their design, probably a reasonable decision as Prius spend most of their life in the city where it doesn't matter as much. A great design overall really as it is also very roomy, at least as good as a BX or Xantia, and like all cars with good aerodynamics it looks right. Some would say a bit ugly or funny, but they said that about the DS and CX in their day. The more car design follows aerodynamics for design rather than meaningless concepts of 'presence' or 'power' the happier I will be. Truly form follows function
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    "It should however be borne in mind that there is no universal standard for these measurements. Each wind tunnel itself constitutes the standard for the experimental research done there. From one wind tunnel to another, there may be dynamometric or blown-wind dispersions provoking slight distortions between the results found with one or another tunnel. For this reason, it is always well to know where and in what circumstances the measurements put forward were made" To quote from the Citronet article ------ Aerodynamics . I would also venture to say that load will have no bearing on any of the results obtained on the hydraulically suspended Citroens since the car will in fact self level and maintain a constant attitude to the slip stream. This of course assumes that the system is at least charged and capable of functioning as it would on the road. I doubt that they could perform the testing with the engine running should a facility be capable of measuring a full size vehicle. As a bye the bye special consideration was given the the shape of the under side of the DS so that the air flow below the car would pass firstly through a zone of compression from the bumper into the nose under tray and forward suspension area, and then into a zone of expansion under the main floor of the car and constantly expanding towards the rear. This provides an area of lessened pressure on the under side of the car that increases as speed rises. The first application of 'ground effect'?
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I think if you read the article they had the engine running when they tested the GSA and got .318 real world, real car in that particular wind tunnel. Toyota solution to the problem of changing attitude with load? Ignore but put in rock hard suspension just in case.
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