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  1. #51
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    It seems to me that the passenger compartment is quite well sealed. Good door and boot seals!
    A fan forcing air into this compartment will eventually be forced to cavitate as the air pressure will rise slightly above the out side air pressure. Bit like trying to blow more air into a fully inflated balloon.
    The C pillars on my CX have this nice brushed aluminium trim complete with horizontal air vents at the lower edge.
    I found that when the trims were removed that these vents had been rendered useless. The factory had stuck a piece of vinyl over the corresponding outlet in the C pillar underneath the trim.
    The air in a non air conditioned car is supposed to flow through the cabin and exit through these vents. There is a section on the inside C pillar trim that is shaped to allow air to enter and then pass through the C pillar from the upper inner duct down the inside of the C pillar and out to the external atmosphere.
    Of course I removed the vinyl patch and consigned it to the bin.
    It is amazing how much more air now passes through the cabin from the fans.
    I have yet to refill the air con system with Hychil. I do however look forward to an efficient cooling from the system. The car's aircon actually was not bad when I had it on the road fourteen years ago. It was only filled with an R12 substitute ( not sure which one ).
    The key to having it work well was to allow the warmed air out as the cooled air was fed in. This is probably why the cars that still have that silly patch in place only function well on 'Recirculate'. The air has some where to go in the recirculate mode!!!!!!

    By the way this car is a 1978 model with the early single evaporator in the console.
    Another important mod was to install a secondary vacuum operated heater tap to back up the original manual tap on the side of the heater box. That tap also had to be reconditioned to work effectively!
    Yell out when your ready to gas it up..... All you'll need is a universal RD. I should have enough oil and shellite here to flush and renew it's oil before it's gassed up....

    I'm going to add the mechanical tap into a heater hose to the CX here while it's cooling system is apart. I'm happy for it to be a mechancial tap that opened/closed under the bonnet. The way I can leave it open and just close it if required in the middle of summer (I doubt it'll make much difference if your heater box is all sealed up).

    seeya,
    Shane L.

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    A $2.50 12 volt hobby motor equals a working vent motor. Hack saw off the imbedded motor. Remove gear off burn out shaft. Refit & test. Citroen CX Air Cond Options-imageuploadedbyaussiefrogs1390894703.314336.jpgCitroen CX Air Cond Options-imageuploadedbyaussiefrogs1390894726.447926.jpgCitroen CX Air Cond Options-imageuploadedbyaussiefrogs1390894766.096216.jpg
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  3. #53
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    A $2.50 12 volt hobby motor equals a working vent motor. Hack saw off the imbedded motor. Remove gear off burn out shaft. Refit & test. Click image for larger version. 

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    Is the motor you fitted designed to sit stalled indefinitely the crazy design of that motor means it'll drive to the end of the flaps travel then sit there stalled permanently until you change the flap, then it'll drive to the other end of the gear and sit permanently stalled there Crazy design !
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  4. #54
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    Default Citroen CX Air Cond Options

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Is the motor you fitted designed to sit stalled indefinitely the crazy design of that motor means it'll drive to the end of the flaps travel then sit there stalled permanently until you change the flap, then it'll drive to the other end of the gear and sit permanently stalled there Crazy design !
    Unfortunately all of them failed over time due to this design. I let it crank to the desired position then disconnected it. I'll connect a power window switch in due course. Next sorting out a remote heater tap or as you suggested just open manually during winter. VN-Vy Commodore have a vacuum tap set up with a built in flow back. Not sure yet how to make that work? Could use another electric operated tap with additional window switch instead.
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    I took a photo of the heater tap in my car yesterday. It is a simple 1/2" nickel plated brass steel ball valve with a hose tail fitted each end. These are high quality industrial valves used in many industries. They are cheap and simple. Any hydraulic supplier will have them. Probably also available in Bunnings, although they are unlikely to have the hose tails.

    Or you could get one on Fleabay http://stores.ebay.com.au/The-Hoze-Joint/Ball-Valves-/_i.html?_fsub=372961319&_sid=920070059&_trksid=p46 34.c0.m322

    This valve has been in this car 10+ years. It gets turned on in winter (about 3 months in Brisbane) and turned off for the rest of the year. I've never experienced any issues with the heater or cooling system. But I do open the valve when changing / bleeding coolant.

    I did wire up a micro switch to the temperature lever in the centre console, so that the switch activates when the temp lever is pushed fully to the cold position. You can see the yellow wire that comes from the switch in the photo. I was going to fit a vacuum solenoid and Commodore heater tap - but I never got around to it. The manual tap isn't that hard to live with in this climate.
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  6. #56
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    2 of my parts cars have taps, I think one is a vacuum commadore tap. I'm just going to use a manual one like Robs. I really don't think it'll make a huge difference. What I will do is put in the Tarago solenoid Robmac sent me years ago. I was going to fit it as soon as I need to fix the A/C ................ And I'll be buggered if it hasnt' worked perfectly for years (no bad given it's 30+ year old A/C parts used). I'm thinking the solenoid will have to go under the bonnet where the copper pipes "T" off and head down too the back of the car. I'll use the rear units thermostat that I never fitted to drive the solenoid.

    If you fit a rear unit without a solenoid, you will find it turns too a solid lump of ice in hot humid 40+ degree weather. If you then turn the A/C off it'll dump a bucket of water out the rear unit onto the ground and start working again.... Your wife will get very stressed when she sees what appears to be 20litres of water pouring onto the ground from the car and running down the streets drain.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 3rd February 2014 at 11:35 AM.
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  7. #57
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    I took a run to Melbourne last Wednesday, with the temperature over 40+C in full sun. I set out from Albury to Wodonga with the A/C on and had to open the windows because it was too hot to sit in with the A/C on. Then I discovered I had turned the manual heater tap the wrong way (cable operated into the cabin). After this was rectified the single standard unit, with 134a gas seemed adequate, even on the second notch on the fan. It was not cold, by any stretch of the imagination, but I was not uncomfortable, bearing in mind I am pretty tolerant of heat. Forty plus days don't worry me much, even when working outside in them. But I like a comfortable car temperature.
    I got the windows tinted with 3M Crystaline ceramic tint CR 50 (56% Total Solar Energy Rejection; 97% infra red rejection; 44% glare reduction; and not very dark) on the side windows and CR 70 on the rear window(still 97% infrared rejection, but lighter tint), and it certainly made a big difference. A Window Tinter in Baccus Marsh did it and charged me too much, because he knew no one else was carrying the tint, since it is too expensive to hold rolls of it around for the few people who ask for it.

    The trip back to Albury was a hot blustery 40+ C wind in full sun, but was noticeably more comfortable with the tinting done.

    The insulation (thanks Shane for the clue to this) must also be doing some of the work, and makes the car noticeably quieter. Now I can hear all the wind noise around the pillars and door seals! So there is another job. But I am pretty happy with the standard A/C now. So I suppose you can spend the money on a second rear A/C, or you can work on making the standard system work better. Next I will take your collective advice and change to HiChill, when I gas it next (there is a leak in the compressor).

    the other issue I dealt with (which I understand has been discussed here before) is the plastic "scoop" on the bonnet ventilation intake. The tiny little inlet area is not adequate at all. I could have just taken it off, but instead I cut some more holes in the top part of it. With the fan on the 3rd notch it is still sucking furiously through the available holes. So in standard form it will cut the total airflow back considerably I think.

    I suppose I should open a new thread covering the whole restoration job to this car, but I am pretty happy with it. I am slowly working through a long list of jobs. I need a volunteer to ride in the boot and check how much different it is now that it is all insulated? And I may test the new sound system and woofer I installed, at the same time..... tehehe!
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    Default How to wire in a Trinary A/C Pressure Switch?

    I have just the hi/low pressure sender & want to replace it with a trinary switch. Does anyone have instructions on how to wire it in please? The heavy power load is interfering with the c-matic. I have to rectify a couple of leaks so I have an opportunity to do so. Many thanks (another alternator in due course also)
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  9. #59
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Just buy some double spade connectors and plonk them on the thermal switch in the side tank of the radiator. Then just plug both the wires that were there and the wires from the trinary switch as well (or fit a double spade connector to the ends of the trinary switch leads)

    That means both fans will run in parallel or high speed when either the AC head pressure is high or coolant temp is high. Make sure your alternator is up to the job because on warm days the fans will be running at high speed most of the time. Also you could fit a relay to feed the C-matic solenoid which will improve things there as well and you'll already have the soldering iron warmed up.
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    Thanks Greg. So how do I change the fan speed to run on low as the default setting when the a/c is turned on? The two speed sensor behind radiator can be wired into for increased speed as you described.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    Thanks Greg. So how do I change the fan speed to run on low as the default setting when the a/c is turned on? The two speed sensor behind radiator can be wired into for increased speed as you described.
    My fans run on full speed as soon as the AC is turned on with both CX and Xantia. I've no idea what was standard but it makes sense to me to have maximum airflow as the AC is on because it is hot mostly.
    JohnW

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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    My fans run on full speed as soon as the AC is turned on with both CX and Xantia. I've no idea what was standard but it makes sense to me to have maximum airflow as the AC is on because it is hot mostly.
    It's so that the draw on the battery is lowered when the car is at speed which maybe a mute point as the c-matic overrides the fan anyway (oil temp sensor) so more than likely it will always be on high now I think of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    It's so that the draw on the battery is lowered when the car is at speed which maybe a mute point as the c-matic overrides the fan anyway (oil temp sensor) so more than likely it will always be on high now I think of it.
    Live and learn. I didn't know there was an oil temp sensor linked to the fans in the CX. I guess I need to own it for 20 years not 10 to sort these little details out! :0 Thanks for the info.

    Moot not mute too, but that's non-froggie pedantry.
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    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=JohnW;1316958]Live and learn. I didn't know there was an oil temp sensor linked to the fans in the CX. I guess I need to own it for 20 years not 10 to sort these little details out! :0 Thanks for the info.

    Moot not mute too, but that's non-froggie pedantry. [/QUOTE

    You're right on both counts. More crosswords for me😉 I'm only going off the wiring diagram for a C-matic with A/C and the oil temp sensor seems linked to one relay? The light would have to occur to complete the circuit? That would be rare & possibly too late! Currently I have to switch off the A/c to change gear when in slow traffic. Just when cool air is needed most. I also have a temp gauge to add so will need to work out how to keep the red warning light working.
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    [QUOTE=Jinandfonic;1317022]
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Live and learn. I didn't know there was an oil temp sensor linked to the fans in the CX. I guess I need to own it for 20 years not 10 to sort these little details out! :0 Thanks for the info.

    Moot not mute too, but that's non-froggie pedantry. [/QUOTE

    You're right on both counts. More crosswords for me�� I'm only going off the wiring diagram for a C-matic with A/C and the oil temp sensor seems linked to one relay? The light would have to occur to complete the circuit? That would be rare & possibly too late! Currently I have to switch off the A/c to change gear when in slow traffic. Just when cool air is needed most. I also have a temp gauge to add so will need to work out how to keep the red warning light working.
    Sounds like not enough volts left when the fans are running doesn't it. I have a Stewart-Warner voltmeter fitted and it has a proper galvanometer movement, so responds instantly to changes, unlike most others that are bimetallic strips or something that move very slowly. Good investment - they appear on ebay from time to time - as you really can see what is happening.

    Mine drops nearly a volt when the AC is switched on, despite the electrical system being in fairly good shape with a newish 120 amp Bosch alternator. Not any gear change trouble.

    Cheers
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  16. #66
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    The wiring in the Prestige starts the fans on low speed as soon as the air-conditioning is turned on. But my 1978 C-matic did not. You can easily set up a trigger for low speed form the feed to air-conditioning compressor. It is kind of running in parallel with the thermal switch that hangs down behind the radiator

    If you are having problems changing gear with the AC on, you either have a wiring issue or your alternator is not up to the job. I would first be measuring battery voltage with engine idling, AC on, lights on. If it is up to speck, the issue is wiring and as I suggested put a relay in the final feed to the C-matic solenoid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    Has anyone put in a heater tap or found by disconnecting the heater it improves the CX front unit cooling? Except for the early CX I's (2200) which have a tap the later series I's (2400) have a flap to a separate heater box (with old seals now) I can imagine a heater that is always on within the system would generate extra heat soak?
    I found when I had a cx that the heater tap was jammed. I removed it and dismantled it. That was an interesting exercise because I found that internally it had broken, so that no matter what position you set the control, the water would always flow through. So, removing the tap, or replacing it might make a HUGE difference. The other poor design was that the fan heater/cooler blower motor wasn't really powerful enough. I swapped it for one from a Japanese car at the wreckers and ended up with better air flow, but still not really good enough. I came to the conclusion that the air intake was too small or restricted to get enough air flow.
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    Default Heater tap

    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th View Post
    CX heater tap. So, removing the tap, or replacing it might make a HUGE difference.
    Certainly the heater tap working effectively and completely is a key component in getting the A/C working adequately. I have a manual tap operated remotely by a cable routed to the cabin console. It works very well, but either needs cleaning or adjusting as it turns on properly from the cabin, but does not turn off completely. I need to open the bonnet and push it the last fraction to get it off completely. If it is not off completely you may as well leave the A/C off. So it makes a huge difference.

    I have done what Shane (the other one!) did, and completely insulated the cabin, boot and under bonnet area. I am not sure if i ended up sealing off the boot from the cabin or not, but I think not (the holes in the metal barrier).Then I got the best tinting job money could buy on side and rear windows (new generation tinting, I can fish out the details if anyone in interested?) I was planning on gassing it with the alternative gas Shane uses (can't remember the name just now) but the fellow gassed it with standard gas so I decided to see how it would go. I am pretty happy with how the standard system operates, even up to temperatures above 40C, and it was actually cold.

    Yes, it is a CX, it has a standard A/C running modern gas, and I am not suffering sun stroke at the moment (as it is -12C where I am at the moment), and other people seem to think I am reasonably sane, and on my reckoning it was cold enough! I have not had the opportunity to test it at 48C or higher (as we used to experience in the Riverina (Urana), but will certainly take the first chance to do this in the future. On occasion I actually had to turn the fan down to middle or lower settings - can you believe that! From memory, the condenser fans both operate from the get go, but I wouldn't stake my life on it, because the other things had higher priority at the time.

    So I would pay attention to details like the heater tap, insulation, and a good tinting job, and perhaps sealing the cabin, before spending too much effort or money on other alternatives.
    Last edited by meinkiev; 13th January 2015 at 03:46 AM.
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    I've now moved on to solving the airflow in the CX2200 and reinstating the air conditioning. It has the rare second tacked on evaporator in front of the gearshift. I know of only one other that RobT saw at a wreckers a few years ago. Has anyone had any experience with a working one?
    Problems: 1) the flap that directs air to the fixed face grill OR screen demist has a broken plastic shaft (flimsy) 2) a dustpan full of grime was blocking the unit internally 3) the second evap was impeding airflow to eye ball vents.

    I decided to compare this earlier '76 unit to the one from my '78 wreck and the earlier one is of far better quality. Proper rubber seals molded on metal flaps, no crumbling clued foam on sharp surfaces. Even the '76 evaporator is a thicker better-looking unit than the '78, which makes it surprising that they required a second one.
    The early unit must be a CitroŽn in house item? (No branding) It is very well put together and the electrical loom has better insulation and placement. There are definitely less parts in the later Behr branded unit though (accountants?) and better placed face vents. The flow through on the early one looks less interrupted without the heater blend door. Citroen CX Air Cond Options-img_2379.jpg The problem with the '76 unit is that face eyes ball vents feed from where the foot vents would be on the Behr unit and that where the second evaporator was added (three right angles turns) . This really would have slowed down the flow.Citroen CX Air Cond Options-img_2383.jpg
    The plan is to combine the best of both and add in a serviceable filter.
    Last edited by Jinandfonic; 14th January 2015 at 06:56 PM.
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    Citroen CX Air Cond Options-img_2385.jpg missing picture
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  21. #71
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
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    The vent temperature can get quite low with the fans running full bore... so it's not the cooling ability of the evaporator that's the issue, it's the amount of air the fan can move

    sadly I can't see the extra evaporator helping unless it's has a secondary fan!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    The vent temperature can get quite low with the fans running full bore... so it's not the cooling ability of the evaporator that's the issue, it's the amount of air the fan can move

    sadly I can't see the extra evaporator helping unless it's has a secondary fan!
    Yes the other problem is the convoluted tower ducting used for both fresh or recirculating air. The fans themselves are very powerful. The little evaporator could be mounted in the glove box out of sight with another small fan just feeding the outer face vents very easily and the dash would look unchanged. I'll get each evaporator flushed and pressure tested to see what's viable next.
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  23. #73
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    When I went to recharge the Air-conditioning I found a guy who will fill with Hychill. When we were regassing it, noted some small bubbles appearing between the front plate and body of the compressor. We have found the leak. That was about 6 months ago and the system worked surprising well even if the gas level was slowly falling, but time to fix properly. Sanden do a new compressor that is a drop in replacement for the SD508 in the car, but Jason suggested why don't you get the original overhauled and he knows a guy that does it. His reasoning was, longer guarantee with a guy you know and probably cheaper. I liked the idea on the basis of not throwing anything away if it still works or can be fixed. Job was completed a few weeks ago, cost $400 to overhaul the compressor and then degassed with R134A. First impressions are good, you can't hear the compressor anymore and air coming out the vents is cold.

    Still it needed a good test. Yesterday was predicted to hit 41C in Sydney, so the perfect day to take the CX to work and test the A/C. Parked the car where I thought it would be in shade in the afternoon, but when I returned in the afternoon to drive home at was dappled shade. Weatherzone listed the temp at Sydney airport, not far from work at 42.4C. Get all fans to max and the thermostat right around to trigger recirculation. After about 3km the interior is liveable and after about 10km comfortable. Problem is we are travelling south and the sun is pouring in on the drivers side. When we turn to the west things improve although an Aethermic windscreen would have helped. I think a CX Prestige has more window area on the side than the front. Traffic was heavy which didn't help. Compared to the Prius which did the same job the day before in 37C heat. The two took the same distance to get the inside liveable, but it was able to pull the temp down a bit more. It has the advantage of much less traffic on its drive, less volume to cool and compressor speed independent of vehicle/ engine speed.

    Therefore I would say the CX passed its test with flying colours
    JohnW, Jinandfonic and UFO like this.
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  24. #74
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    Drove my cx in the heat yesterday and found the aircon adequate and comfortable,it is a twin air system. The only issue I have with it,and one needs to remember,it is a 30 year old system,is that the side vents barely produce anything,Andy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alhantos View Post
    Drove my cx in the heat yesterday and found the aircon adequate and comfortable,it is a twin air system. The only issue I have with it,and one needs to remember,it is a 30 year old system,is that the side vents barely produce anything,Andy.
    Side vents are an issue. RobT has sold his CX now yet his party trick was that he installed ducted fans each side (from remote controlled model jets) with a speed control. Strong enough to blow a sports cap off your head!
    The downsides: noise was huge, air was rushing too fast over the evaporator to cool any better and they wont last if used continuously. Great fun though. His car was probably the best CX system I've experienced and it ws due to Hychill working best in r12 systems. Safety concerns is why I went back to r134a yet it is not as effective.

    A question for the technical minded: Ive noticed the return line t-piece really freezes over. It seems a waste to go directly back into the compressor to be pressurised and heated again so soon. Could a secondary evaporator less a Tx valve be added to the tower to sort of pre-chill incoming air? Or even to a secondary condenser be placed in front of the main to help cool incoming frontal ambient air or instead some type of heat exchanger to bring down the low pressure side temp for improved efficiency? (ie. wrapped high and low side pipes together?) I've seen that early Maseratis used the return line to cool the fuel and carburettor to reduced evaporation. Knowing it is the changing state of the gas from liquid to gas and the superheat ratio that make the systems work; would it turn into a gas (low side) before reaching the compressor and be a problem?
    Citroen C5 II manual '05; C4 Exculsive '07; Citroen CX2200 Pallas '76; CX2400 C-matic Pallas '78

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