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  1. #26
    Fellow Frogger! Jinandfonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meinkiev View Post
    The Secondary fan sounds like a goer. I will be interested to know how it works, and if it does, how you constructed it?
    But will it tend to force air out in another direction, like towards the main intake shute?
    There is room in the tower for another fan to draw in fresh air. For A/c recirculation obviously less space to play with. Intake is behind oil level indicator. A 12v computer fan too feeble yet fits. Sending cooled cabin air back into a hot bulkhead/engine bay is not brilliant. We had a '74 Merc 280CE which had the evaporator placed last just behind the main face vent. Didn't help with defrosting the windscreen yet used to blow a white Arctic haze on hot days. Even got hit with shards of ice on really humid days! My 2200 has had a secondary evap behind the eyeball vents. (An Aussie delivery modification) Air flow is too pathetic. I'm thinking of completely doing away with the tower & anything engine side. But then backdraft vacuum would cause the cabin to become dangerous with exhaust gases. (Recirculating air in most cars is set @about 70% when engaged to avoid this) all solvable with money no doubt but that would be extremely over investing. Home designs underway.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by meinkiev View Post
    This company says you can tint the windscreen without making it darker, so presumably this is a tint film which mimics the Athermic windscreens. I presume there is some law against it in Oz? But surely this would be cheaper and maybe as effective for the front screen as an Athermic screen? Tint Questions: Does Window Tint Reduce Heat? | Tint World
    What can you tell me?
    On of my customers has clear, uv barrier tint on all the Windows of his d s. Works great but cost 3 times as much as ordinary tint.

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    Jinandfonic, I would have thought a bigger fan in the intake tower may be a better alternative than all others? why didn't you attempt this?

    DaffyDuck, thanks for the info. As I understand it, even ordinary windscreens block most (possibly 90%) of UV rays. It's the infra-red rays we want to block, so a good window film needs to block as much of these as possible. Some claim to block up to 70%. Some of the latest type use ceramic material I think, and others a metalic coating. I would be happy to try a clear one if it were legal here, which it appears not to be. Probably no one would know until you were involved in an accident and the insurance company and the law got involved, in which case it would cost you more than you were worth.
    Shane

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    [QUOTE=meinkiev;1203660]Jinandfonic[COLOR=#3e3e3e], I would have thought a bigger fan in the intake tower may be a better alternative than all others? why didn't you attempt this?

    I'm actually yet to travel in any CX with a working A/C. I prefer to re-cool recirculated air for efficiency. I could reverse the system so fresh air is drawn in via the cabin intake with the firewall closed off but can see that getting very complicated. The underdash unit is looking sensible. I'll just have to put up with hot feet.



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    Quote Originally Posted by meinkiev View Post
    Jinandfonic, I would have thought a bigger fan in the intake tower may be a better alternative than all others? why didn't you attempt this?

    DaffyDuck, thanks for the info. As I understand it, even ordinary windscreens block most (possibly 90%) of UV rays. It's the infra-red rays we want to block, so a good window film needs to block as much of these as possible. Some claim to block up to 70%. Some of the latest type use ceramic material I think, and others a metalic coating. I would be happy to try a clear one if it were legal here, which it appears not to be. Probably no one would know until you were involved in an accident and the insurance company and the law got involved, in which case it would cost you more than you were worth.
    The stuff I saw was a relatively new product. He told me he had had it put on and I really had to look to find it. Completely clear. I was impressed. Came out of Phoenix, Arizona, USA.

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    Is the A/C relay (compressor clutch etc) under the left headlamp? I have one with two yellow wires joining to one connector going to no where presently & guessing it's for the compressor?


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    Quote Originally Posted by meinkiev View Post
    Shane, I think a professional could lay it on without wrinkling it, but I think you are right, it is illegal in Oz. Apparently they can do it in the US. So that leaves us back with Athermic windscreens I suppose.
    When I get to it I want to see if it is possible to put a bigger/faster fan on the A/C to get more air through.
    As ever, I'd be interested if enough people were out there to get a batch of athermic screens made up. Might need a cuppa tea, a Bex and a good lie down when the price comes in though.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    The stuff I saw was a relatively new product. He told me he had had it put on and I really had to look to find it. Completely clear. I was impressed. Came out of Phoenix, Arizona, USA.

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    It IS interesting. The way I read the WA law, tinted films are forbidden on windscreens. So if this one is NOT tinted, it might actually comply with the law.
    JohnW

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    [QUOTE=daffyduck;1203746]The stuff I saw was a relatively new product. He told me he had had it put on and I really had to look to find it. Completely clear. I was impressed. Came out of Phoenix, Arizona, USA.

    Is it possible to ask him what's its name is and who supplies it?

    It is possible that it is the newer type of Ceramic coated tint products. These are said to be clear films as well. Here is the blurb from this supplier: Automotive Window Tinting
    "The Ceramic film is the next generation of automotive window tinting films. The Ceramic film is one of the best films on the market today offering an incredible 90% or better infrared reflection. The quality and clarity of the Ceramic film is the best in the business. We offer the 80%, 60%, 45%, 30% and the 20% infrared reflective films. The Ceramic film has a lifetime warranty, superior performance and a wide range of scientific data backing it up. The Ceramic film is 100% non-conductive. It will not affect any of the electronic devices in modern cars.

    And check this out: Crystalline Automotive Films - Clear automotive window film for cars, trucks - Crystalline - 3M US
    And: Advanced Ceramic
    Tell me what you are thinking
    Shane

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    Here are a few ceramic products I found: Best Window Tinting Film for Cars ? Window Tint Reviews | Bestcovery

    A German company, HŁper Optik, product seems to have the best reviews, but I cannot find any scientific tests on it.
    Last edited by meinkiev; 29th October 2013 at 02:01 AM.
    Shane

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    Does anyone know what alternative condenser can be fitted in the available space on a Series 1 CX? Part number or model from which it is sourced would be good?

    I found someone who seems to know his Air-Con work well. He wants to put 134a gas, replace hoses (to handle the higher pressure), receiver drier (not up to scratch he says), compressor (which is adequate but has a slow leak), condenser (bigger with more tubes per sq.in),... for starters, and then look at a fan option after that. I am in the process of insulating from front to back, and then will have ceramic tint fitted to side and rear windows (60% total solar reduction, 97% infra-red reduction). Progress report after that!
    Shane

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    shane, why not convert to hychill (similar pressure to r12) and get an increase in efficiency of 10%
    Brian
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    Quote Originally Posted by meinkiev View Post
    Does anyone know what alternative condenser can be fitted in the available space on a Series 1 CX? Part number or model from which it is sourced would be good?

    I found someone who seems to know his Air-Con work well. He wants to put 134a gas, replace hoses (to handle the higher pressure), receiver drier (not up to scratch he says), compressor (which is adequate but has a slow leak), condenser (bigger with more tubes per sq.in),... for starters, and then look at a fan option after that. I am in the process of insulating from front to back, and then will have ceramic tint fitted to side and rear windows (60% total solar reduction, 97% infra-red reduction). Progress report after that!
    Back to another question. Do we have a few who'll pay for an athermic windscreen?
    JohnW

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  14. #39
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martook View Post
    shane, why not convert to hychill (similar pressure to r12) and get an increase in efficiency of 10%
    Brian
    I'll grab the numbers I used for mine tonight. It was the most efficient condenser we could find that would fit (it's *not* the cheapest though!).

    The drier will need to be changed everytime you open the system. An A/C place will likely refuse to use Hychill, all the recovery gear will be setup for R134a, and they won't want to contaminate it with different refrigerants.

    Why don't you fix it up yourself ?? You issue is going to be airflow in the end.

    seeya,
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  15. #40
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I think the easiest way to get the airflow right is the rear unit. I am lucky that I managed to score a factory rear unit but I think the Windsor rear unit is just about as good at moving air, although a little noisier. Make sure it has good wiring there, a relay might be a good investment. The factory unit has a power transistor controlling speed but we put an extra position on the switch to bypass the tranny and when set to that there is a nice breeze falling on your head in the front, and this on a Prestige which has about 250mm more distance to the back unit. I have sealed all openings to the boot except those covered by the rear unit. There is plenty of gap to draw air in especially from around the armrest.

    Mine is still gassed with R134a. When it was first filled with that for the first time, many years ago, the TX valve was changed to suit. If you are going to use Hychill, suitable TX valves for that should be fitted. At the last refill before our trip out west I don't think as much gas was put in, the compressor used to really growl on hot days, now it is quieter and the system works just as well I think. At one point I got the A/C guy to put 850g in, I think it got about 560 at the last fill. Overfilling probably not a good idea. Still kills car performance more than any other car I know on a hot day.

    The other thing to look at is the water pump. There are two easily available units, an Italian unit and the SKF/Valeo one. The Italian unit has 100mm diameter main pulley, the SKF 85mm. According to my calculations, the drive ratio for the A/C compressor goes from 1:1.22 to 1:1.44 compared to engine revolutions. So at 2,000rpm engine revs the compressor is doing 2440 or 2880rpm depending on the pump. I have an Italian unit on the car now and the difference, although small is noticeable. Every bit counts.

    Those who think the A/C on a CX is that bad it is not worth having should have been in the car when the electrical power split device fried itself several years ago. It was a warm day and the A/C was coping. When the incident happened we had engine and indicators but nothing else, no fans no A/C. It was alarming how quickly the heat ramped up in the car and you could not wind the windows down. The CX A/C does shift an amazing amount of heat out, just that other cars do even more.

    The other thing to check is make sure the recirculation motor is working. You have to wait until the system has got the cars temperature down a bit but when you engage the recirculation (turn A/C thermostat past 8 o'clock) you should notice a difference to the temp oozing out of the front vents immediately. If not you are too early. The other day we had to use the CX on a hot day and it was parked in the sun for about an hour when we left. After running for about 2-3 minutes we could engage the recirculation and with the front fans on full, the air from the rear dropped noticeably as well. Some of the air had oozed its way the the inlet on the rear unit and helped it. It was a very humid day so the act of removing some of the moisture probably helped more.
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    Hi Greg, is the Windsor unit the modified under-dash set up? (Autoclim factory?)
    Cheers,
    Adrian
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    Hi Adrian

    no the Windsor unit is the rear unit as fitted to cars up to about 1980 in Australia. Later 2500s had a Autoclima unit which I don't think is as good. Rob T's rear unit is a Windsor.

    As for the front unit I have never seen a Xantia fan unit out of the car. I wonder how much bigger they are than the CX unit and if so I wonder how hard it would be to modify the CX system to fit one. I think you would get more airflow but it would be a bit noisier.
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    I am in the process of insulating from front to back, all except the ceiling area, and will tint it with ceramic tint (60% total solar block-out; 97% infra=red block-out claimed, no signal interference).
    The next job is to get to the evaporator and seal it and stuff. Then I will try to see if the fan can be re-jigged to work faster.

    We gassed it up with 134a and it is only cool so far, so it needs something. Possibly needs a TX valve to suit 134a, at least. Has a slow leak at the compressor, but the air-con man suggested the seals may seal themselves, since it has not been driven for 5 years till now. I am sceptical. The compressor is working well though.

    Another crew re-gassed my Pug 405 with Hi-Chill by mistake. They told me they did it because they initially quoted me $150 and this was not enough to cover the 134a! So that is the last time they will see me. It was not performing well in the Pug, and the new air-con man was not very enthusiastic about Hi-Chil. He says it does not have the same heat absorption capacity as 134a.

    JohnW, what is the likely price for an athermic windscreen? I will address all the other issues first, but if it will make the standard system work well, I will consider it.

    Shane, would appreciate that part number? Actually, after they gassed it up and he took some pressure readings, he was quite impressed with the fans in the front, and was thinking the condenser may not be the biggest problem. He asked me to see if I can get an electrical crew to find a solution for the internal fan, which i will ask about next.
    Shane

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    Hi there.

    I've no idea to be honest. Every now and again the subject comes up and I've always said I'd buy one, but I gather a batch is needed. Nor do I know how or where to go to get it organised. But if enough people wanted one it might be realistic.

    Cheers

    John
    JohnW

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  20. #45
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Citroen CX Air Cond Options-p1160769.jpegCitroen CX Air Cond Options-p1160770.jpeg

    This is the condenser I used...



    As you can see it's has a lot of tubes per square inch.



    It would likely have double the capacity of the original condenser.

    As for fans, if you have a good solid 12volts at the fan motor, that's about as good as it get. To get any better you would need to throw away the whole heaterbox setup. Chris Stuart over in Perth tried a leaf blow strapped to the bonnet vent/intake and found you couldn't flow more air even with an air blower screaming flat out into it... there's too many restrictions in the intake ducting, and it's already flowing at mixumum capacity

    With insulation, good working front/rear units (especially with hychill in them.... it's considerably more efficient than R134a) you'll have a nice cool car, even in 44degree heat when the suns not out. With the sun out, you still die under that huge windscreen. The final bit is the windscreen tinting. An athermic windscreen would do it .... you'd have a nice cool CX to travel in, even in direct hot sunshine.

    This is it here ...
    http://speedyairspares.com.au/produc...er-39-163.html

    Like I said, not really cheap

    Look how cheap a full A/C system is in the US How do they do it over there ?

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/UNIVERSAL...a9379c7&_uhb=1
    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 27th January 2014 at 09:44 AM.
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    Hi

    Not sure if you guys have discussed this before, but I was thinking to get the fan to do more work either means making it spin a lot faster or fit a different impeller with deeper blades. Maybe a brushless dc motor could be sourced to spin the impeller faster instead of the existing motor?

    Marc


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    but the air-con man suggested the seals may seal themselves, since it has not been driven for 5 years till now

    and the new air-con man was not very enthusiastic about Hi-Chil. He says it does not have the same heat absorption capacity as 134a.
    Based on experience he wrong is on both counts.

    Possibly time to find a third air con man?
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    I'm just insulating and sealing my ventilation system currently. With the tower out the air being blown into the cabin was greatly improved. Nearly keen to bypass the tower & run a duct direct from inside to blower. But that's not original & run the risk of stale &/or exhaust gasses building up in the cabin. I tried to fit a second fan yet the room is just not to be found. I have a Nissan blower motor and blades that nearly fits the existing unit. It is stronger but once connected up no difference at vents. A direct 12volt current to the fan gives the best outcome. I'm also rebuilding the reticulation flap motor. Jaycar as the various parts required. I will set it up with a toggle switch to prevent it burning out instead of the factory set up.Try your local radiator places for good second hand condensers. Valley radiators Brisbane for example took my old condenser, Matched it with a modern parallel flow unit, pressure tested it, repainted it. Sealed with caps for $90 incl. warranty. Orion compressors have the upgraded genuine SD7 (old one only 5 cylinders) for $395 Or Chinese copy SD508 on eBay for just $125 plus delivery. Speedy air do the DIY hose kits for $305 plus postage (includes crimping tool) I also found Jag spares Melbourne have rear A/C units from late model Landrover discovery's for around $90 incl. delivery (It is a Sanden made unit with a thick parallel flow evaporator) I still need to source a solenoid gas cut out for the rear unit. It has taken a while to get to this stage as many other repairs have cropped up as being more important I.e. Steering rack overhaul (easier without a/c pipework in the way) I will go Hychill as R134a is being phased out and the replacement HFO R1234yf may run at a higher pressure and is mildly flammable anyway.
    Last edited by Jinandfonic; 8th February 2014 at 03:56 PM.
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  24. #49
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Based on experience he wrong is on both counts.

    Possibly time to find a third air con man?
    That's for sure.... Shane told me which CX he picked up ......... The car he has is well known and very much worth spending the time, effort and money on...

    Given it's an import it only has front A/C .... Personally I think the only way ahead is fitting a rear unit from a local car............... Ummmm..... It sounds like his A/C guy "converted" the car from R12 to R134a by simply adding the R134a.... without changing all the 'O'rings and flushing the whole thing and adding the correct oil. Hopefully the car had already been converted in the past, that's why he only added R134a.

    Hychill is 15->30% more efficient than R134a ... so it is worth while.

    You guys are wasting your time talking fan upgrades. The air flow the heaterbox is capable of is already 100% ... If you can tape a leaf blower to the intake, and get no extra air from the vents, you are at the systems capacity. ie: the airflow is terrible, and always will be.

    The rear unit on mine can freeze the lower portion of the rear window over. It's the REAR UNIT and a tinted winscreen that will make the car nice and cool inside. I can travel quite comforably in the CX here in 40+ degree weather IF THE SUN ISN"T OUT. Even though the inside of the car is nice and cool, you die sitting under that bloody great winscreen, while the kids in the back shiver under blankets ( 'cos the rear unit is blowing cold air down there backs )

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    It seems to me that the passenger compartment is quite well sealed. Good door and boot seals!
    A fan forcing air into this compartment will eventually be forced to cavitate as the air pressure will rise slightly above the out side air pressure. Bit like trying to blow more air into a fully inflated balloon.
    The C pillars on my CX have this nice brushed aluminium trim complete with horizontal air vents at the lower edge.
    I found that when the trims were removed that these vents had been rendered useless. The factory had stuck a piece of vinyl over the corresponding outlet in the C pillar underneath the trim.
    The air in a non air conditioned car is supposed to flow through the cabin and exit through these vents. There is a section on the inside C pillar trim that is shaped to allow air to enter and then pass through the C pillar from the upper inner duct down the inside of the C pillar and out to the external atmosphere.
    Of course I removed the vinyl patch and consigned it to the bin.
    It is amazing how much more air now passes through the cabin from the fans.
    I have yet to refill the air con system with Hychil. I do however look forward to an efficient cooling from the system. The car's aircon actually was not bad when I had it on the road fourteen years ago. It was only filled with an R12 substitute ( not sure which one ).
    The key to having it work well was to allow the warmed air out as the cooled air was fed in. This is probably why the cars that still have that silly patch in place only function well on 'Recirculate'. The air has some where to go in the recirculate mode!!!!!!

    By the way this car is a 1978 model with the early single evaporator in the console.
    Another important mod was to install a secondary vacuum operated heater tap to back up the original manual tap on the side of the heater box. That tap also had to be reconditioned to work effectively!
    Cheers Gerry

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