Traction Thermostat
  • Help
Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    560

    Icon1 Traction Thermostat

    I've recently "Red-Plated" my Big 6 and proudly went for our first decent outing Sunday.

    I ran like a proverbial "chien"!

    Misfiring & flat-spotting.

    Got a bit better after 30-odd mins.

    At home after a good hour's running I stuck a meat thermometer in the radiator filler. It got up to "Beef- Very Rare" which is 120 deg F.

    I removed what I think is the thermostat housing:

    Advertisement







    Apart from a nifty bit of panty hose clamped inside the hose (a filter?), I found nothing resembling a thermostat.

    Am I looking in the right place?

    Can I source one locally?
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor (Pending Resto Project)

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! tractionfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    280

    Default

    I have 2 Big 6's and an 11B normale none of them have thermostats. I put a thermofan in mine sourced from rare spares. They hate stop start traffic.
    Hope this helps

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    560

    Default

    Thnx TF, but Jose Franssen lists one:

    http://www.citroen-traction-avant.co...rmostat&Page=1

    Thermo fans stop OVER-heating quite well but at road speeds they are not required as the radiator does all the cooling. Modern cars with electrically driven fans switch them on only at idle or slow speeds.

    My problem is it won't warm up. Sunday was the first cold day we've had since I got the car.

    I'd be very surprised if they left the factory without one. European winters are too severe. And it was Ettore Bugatti & not Andre Citroen who suggested "Monsieur should get a heated garage."

    Seriously, is that a thermostat housing I have removed? I can see no recess on either the cylinder head side or the aluminium cover to seat a thermostat. There is, however, a by-pass to the water pump to allow SOME flow when flow is obstructed at low temperatures. To not have this runs the risk of cylinder heads cracking.

    Franssen declares the thermostat is 40mm and it goes in the "water pipe". Sounds like it goes in the hose?
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor (Pending Resto Project)

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    10,192

    Default

    No, it's an elbow, not a thermostat housing as far as I am aware. Remember, it's really a pre-war, almost vintage car and you are even lucky it has a water pump! Radiator muffs and adjustable louvres were sometimes used on older cars.

    The item you list seems designed to go inside a water hose. Maybe, fit one inside the top hose, clamped in as it is in most D models?

    Does the ignition advance/retard operate? The handbook suggests retarding it to start when cold.

    Installing the heater for winter may help as it partly covers the radiator, but it's apparently meant to be removed above 20 C.
    Last edited by David S; 21st May 2013 at 11:01 PM.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Trading Estate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    588

    Default

    Haven't seen a thermostat on a light 15.
    '04 Megane
    Gone but not forgotten
    '71 16 TS, '72 16 TL, '74 15TS,'82 20TS Series 2, '85 25 GTX. '49 L15,

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    sorrento
    Posts
    99

    Default

    There is no thermostat in Tractions. Some had a blind over the radiator front for very cold weather, also reccomend winter oil ie SAE 0-10. A very well known Queensland tractionist puts a piece of cardboard in front of his radiator when he ventures south in winter. Some have put an in hose thermostat (renault 12)(wash your mouthout) in the top hose also (Franssen?)
    I would say you are bloody lucky to have a 6 that doesnot over heat wait till summer!!!!
    1950 Light 15 - Blanche 'Claude'
    1949 Light 15 - Noir 'Emilie'
    1982 2CV Special - Lagune Bleu 'Daffie'
    2007 C4 HDI EGS - Rouge Lucifer
    1968 Velo Solex 3800 - Noir

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    melbourne,victoria,australia
    Posts
    1,385

    Default

    [QUOTE=David S;1165567]

    Does the ignition advance/retard operate? The handbook suggests retarding it to start when cold.

    /QUOTE]
    Thanks David... I was having to wait quite some time before my Traction warmed up properly and when I didn't wait ran like a dog...
    Know I know to retard my ignition....
    Rev. Dogboy


    1969 DS21 Pallas BVH with leather
    1970 Renault 16TS
    1967 Honda S800 cabrio
    Citroen 1966 ID Safari (with 23 running gear)
    1975 VW Kombi poptop
    Porsche Boxster S manual
    1988 Vespa PX200E

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,754

    Default

    Will a DS thermostat fit into the top hose ?? Just drill a few bypass holes in it prior to fitting
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  9. #9
    DS
    DS is offline
    Fellow Frogger! DS's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Southern Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    642

    Default

    I've never know Tractions to have thermostats.

    Driving one to Canberra for the Battle of Waterloo in the peak of winter has always been an experience! There is no spare heat to warm the cabin so the heater vent stays closed.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/frontdrive34/2666234893/
    Citroen Car Club of New South Wales member.

    My Citroen ID21F can be seen here http://www.flickr.com/photos/frontdr...7605999522616/

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Camperdown 3260 Australia
    Posts
    3,166

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Will a DS thermostat fit into the top hose ?? Just drill a few bypass holes in it prior to fitting
    No! The hose is much thinner than the DS hose which flares out greatly at the water pump end.
    Cheers Gerry

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    560

    Default

    Merci Messieurs for the lucid replies.

    This vehicle is becoming more interesting as time goes by!

    My current thinking is to buy a Franssen thermostat PLUS a spare hose that it goes in so that I can have a cold weather hose with a thermostat plus an unrestricted one for the warmer months.

    Comments?
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor (Pending Resto Project)

  12. #12
    DS
    DS is offline
    Fellow Frogger! DS's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Southern Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    642

    Default

    Why would you put a thermostat into a car that historically has never needed one? If I can drive a Traction at 99kmh when its 3 degress C outside and have no problems why is your car being a rough running pig and not warming up above an apparent 49C?
    Citroen Car Club of New South Wales member.

    My Citroen ID21F can be seen here http://www.flickr.com/photos/frontdr...7605999522616/

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    10,192

    Default

    If the thermostat works, it should be fully open in summer, so there would be no need for a different pipe unless you find it's running hot with the thermostat fitted. What opening temperature would you choose?

    A working heater could even be possible with a thermostat fitted!

    Really, it should warm up after a few minutes without the thermostat, so could there be some other problem not yet identified? The manifold has a 'hot spot' to help the carb, which is actually a siamesed dual carb, not dual choke unit if it's the original.
    Last edited by David S; 22nd May 2013 at 06:08 PM.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    560

    Default

    DS, It runs pretty well Ok after 30 mins. I just don't think it's healthy for an engine to operate outside its ideal temp range. Why do subsequent models have thermostats? Originality is fine. I'm for "Pur Sang" as much as anyone but if I can upgrade with negligible visual effects I won't hesitate to do so. e.g. I will install a relay to help an aging switch.
    David, Franssen's units are set @ 83 deg C.
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor (Pending Resto Project)

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    2,705

    Default

    Education from way back would have it that thermostats control the coolant flow in order to keep it in the radiator for proper cooling. Or, if the coolant passes through the radiator too quick it won't be cooled.

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    sorrento
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Thermostats are pretty much a post war (WW2) Idea as are oil filters etc.As the TA is a pre war design the engine design is pretty robust but agricultural by modern standards with larger tolerances in most areas as opposed to modern engines with very fine tolerances ie in oil specs, fuel specs, temp ranges,coolant requirements, running clearances etc. They ran on 'pool petrol' in England in the '40s which was about 60 octane.,single range oils ie SAE 30 with no additives or detergents etc.My late father was a mechanic of that era who spent heaps of his time doing engine decokes, valve grinds etc on those style of engines, often on annual basis because of the poor fuel and oils no filters etc by modern standards.Who has heard of a annual valve grind on a modern engine ?
    So although a thermostat may benefit a TA engine it was not designed around that concept but probably around operating between -5C and +35C all temps found in France. So it will help but I suggest improvements will be almost undetectable.
    1950 Light 15 - Blanche 'Claude'
    1949 Light 15 - Noir 'Emilie'
    1982 2CV Special - Lagune Bleu 'Daffie'
    2007 C4 HDI EGS - Rouge Lucifer
    1968 Velo Solex 3800 - Noir

  17. #17
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Hobart, the other planet
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Education from way back would have it that thermostats control the coolant flow in order to keep it in the radiator for proper cooling. Or, if the coolant passes through the radiator too quick it won't be cooled.
    Poor education, or way back machine faulty, sorry.

    Thermostat is to assist in engine getting up to operating temperature and maintaining that operating temperature.
    Nothing to do with radiator cooling.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Armidale
    Posts
    2,604

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    Poor education, or way back machine faulty, sorry.

    Thermostat is to assist in engine getting up to operating temperature and maintaining that operating temperature.
    Nothing to do with radiator cooling.
    And when you think about how a thermostat operates, it is obvious that Richo is correct. A properly working thermostat is closed when the coolant is cold, so the coolant trapped in the engine's water jacket is warmed quickly, but once the engine's operating temperature is reached, it opens as wide as possible, to provide as little restriction to coolant flow as possible.

    Another bit of evidence is that, if a car has trouble with overheating, some people remove the thermostat. This can sometimes help, as long as the radiator isn't heavily clogged. If thermostat removal has any effect, it must be to increase the flow of coolant through the radiator, as even a wide open thermostat must cause some flow restriction.

    Cheers

    Alec

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    2,805

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    Thermostat is to assist in engine getting up to operating temperature and maintaining that operating temperature.
    Nothing to do with radiator cooling.
    Hi
    Correct.

    Some unusual ideas being thrown around here about thermostats. Such a simple item and much under valued and understood, obviously. Not only does it get the engine up to temperature quickly, but for normal driving it modulates the coolant flow continuously to control the temperature in its desired range. It does not fully open untill the temperature rises above the control range. After that the next control step is for the fans to start.

    Without getting too involved in cooling I should point out that, usually the coolant circulation is maintained in the block before the thermostat opens so there are no hot and cold spots. If you block off the coolant in an old engine it may not be doing what you want without some sort of bypass. In the old days the interior heater was the bypass circulation The tractions do not have those 'modern ideas'

    As has been pointed out previously the old control system was a radiator blind and engine bay flaps, both under driver control. I remember having a radiator blind on a Reno 750, I think I remember It had a wire into the cabin pulling against a spring, I think ?

    However getting back to the traction. If it does not run properly cold then it has some problem which could be sorted. We have no problem with ours starting and running from cold even though we have not used it much. I have not heared that as a common problem. The old cars ran plenty rich and had exhaust heated manifolds and sometimes air ducts to go ok in cold weather. Plus the blinds and flaps of course and maybe some ignition advance control. Concentrating on the road was secondary to keeping the engine running well.

    jaahn

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    10,192

    Default

    I don't think there much of bypass on the Big Six engine and it has an external pump on the side of the block. It just circulates all the time and is only one step up from a thermo-syphon layout. I think some degree of bypass in the thermostat in the closed condition would be a good idea as Shane noted. A DS thermostat will be too large for the normal water hose though.

    The engine would have to run better if it's regulated at a fairly constant 80-90C than varying all the time. Whether it's going to be a good solution all year round would depend on whether or not it overheats without the obstruction of a thermostat in the hose. It may be that the cooling system can't cope with the obstruction of even a fully open thermostat on a hot summer day, in which case it may well be best to change the hose to one without a thermostat for summer.

    The original design has an advance/retard adjuster and that could help with starting etc. but it has no vacuum advance to supplement whatever weights lives inside the distributor. I'm not sure how something like 123 ignition deals with an engine with an effectively unregulated temperature.
    Last edited by David S; 2nd June 2013 at 08:18 PM.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    560

    Default

    Well I'm only getting spasmodic response from Franssens.

    I might give this guy a go:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/INLINE-THERM...ht_4567wt_1160

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/180-DEGREE-T...ht_4521wt_1160

    The pipes are 1.5 inch = 38mm so they will fit the top hose nicely.

    If I paint the housing in black epoxy, it won't look too out of place!
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor (Pending Resto Project)

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Coffs Harbour, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    626

    Default

    I have seen no reference so far in this posting to the increased engine wear in a cold engine, especially to bores & rings.
    The exhaust heated hotspot in the inlet manifold certainly helps with vaporising fuel to help prevent oil wash off cylinder walls, but does nothing to help warm the oil.
    Modern super thin multigrade oils do the job well in modern engines, but if they are unsuitable for various reasons for the vintage engine, then it becomes important to get the oil up to temperature as quick as possible. The engine with it's water temperature quickly raised by thermostat control will warm the oil quicker.
    In the past, engines that didn't have a pump bypass used thermostats with a hole in the valve to allow a small flow of water before it started to open, as suggested by Shane. In extreme cold conditions the amount of water flowing through the hole could prevent a normal ideal running temperature to be achieved & it would be necessary to blank of a portion of the radiator. An internally controlled radiator blind is ideal, [ I believe a flap in the air intake chute of Ds was an option in France ], but it is essential to have a gauge to avoid overheating. I cooked a Renault 750 with no gauge ! In Winter I used to run my Peugeot 203 with the lower half of the radiator blanked off so the engine would run cleanly & the heater work, & that had a 80*c thermostat.
    The Bristol I ran for many years had a specific warning in the instruction manual suggesting that the engine not be run at full power, or exceed 2,500rpm until the water temperature had normalised & the oil temperature gauge started to move, & that was a far more modern design than the tractions.

    Richard

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •