Rotten ID/D Special head
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  1. #1
    Tadpole soafie's Avatar
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    Default Rotten ID/D Special head

    Hi all,

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    It's been some time since I've posted on Aussie Frogs. . .changes in my life have meant less time in front of a computer (probably not a bad thing. . .) so I don't get much of a chance to keep up with what is going on in the Citroen world these days.

    I have, however, still been happily driving our '69/'70 ID19B/D Special (nobody has ever been able to give me a definitive answer as to which it is) reasonably regularly and without incident. . .until my current 'disaster'.

    During a long drive on a reasonably warm day, without any kind of warning that I could detect, the hose that runs from the back of the water pump to the bottom of the inlet manifold ruptured and dumped all the coolant quite quickly. How I didn't notice straight away I don't know - I would have expected to smell/hear something at least. . .perhaps the fact that we were travelling at ~110km/h kept all the fumes from the cabin. Anyhow, the short of it is, the car overheated, we stopped and surveyed the damage and decided to trailer the car home rather than try to cobble a repair on the side of the road.

    Upon closer inspection, I found that the head gasket had blown. . .no great problem at this stage - the motor had never been apart as far as I could tell and it probably wouldn't hurt to give the head a bit of a going-over in any case. . .so, off came the head - I stripped out all the valves etc, degreased it and gave it a quick sand blast. . .oooohhhh dear. . .my day took a turn for the worse. . .

    The face of the head actually isn't too bad - there are a couple of water passages that would need welding up but nothing that unexpected:



    Of more concern was the upper face of the head (where the rockers bolt on) which has some ugly holes in it:





    On their own, these holes could probably be repaired but, as you might be able to imagine, much of the rest of the casting is eggshell thin as well and, according to a head specialist (whom I trust) the head is not worth saving.

    Now, before I go and place a wanted ad in the for sale/wanted section for a replacement, I thought it better to find out from the experts what exactly I should be asking for and if it is remotely likely that I'll be able to find a serviceable unit without having to sell a kidney. . .

    Are all short stroke, non-injected DS/ID heads the same. . .mine has 'DX112101A' cast into its upper face if that has any significance? Are they particularly rare/hard to find/expensive in reasonable condition? I'd hate to think that I might have to break up a rust-free, otherwise perfectly serviceable D for the lack of a cylinder head.

    Thanks for your help. . .
    Peter and Sophia
    Jarrahdale, WA
    1970 ID19B

  2. #2
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Hi Peter,
    Welcome back.
    You should be able to find a serviceable cylinder head, PROVIDED it has not had more than 0.1mm, that's 0.004" in the old money surface ground from its base. If more than that has been removed, the cylinder head will be too soft and requires re-hardening. This process is specialised and costly if done correctly. A specialist should be able to advise you on the cost, if you go that way.

    A used cylinder head, of unknown or unwarranted condition is really worth very little to nothing. It could be warped too, or have already been machined, bad valve seats, etc. That is apart from the known issue of corrosion.
    I've known of a couple of cylinder heads which have had more than the 0.1mm removed and subsequently failed. The factory hardening is that critical.

    As far as compatability is concerned, any D Special (1985cc) or DS21 from 1969 on cylinder head will be fine. The later the better. A usable cylinder head shouldn't cost any more than $300, provided it doesn't require more than a seat grinding, guides, a quick glide across the surface grinder and the usual clean up. The odd small divot should deduct a value of $100, the cost of welding and surfacing.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by richo; 25th April 2013 at 01:01 PM.

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Is it an internal inlet manifold head? David Cavanagh has a good one for a short stroke car ( he sent it upto me for an ID19 at one point as I didn't realise the even plug spacing meant if was for a short stroke motor).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  4. #4
    Tadpole soafie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Is it an internal inlet manifold head? David Cavanagh has a good one for a short stroke car ( he sent it upto me for an ID19 at one point as I didn't realise the even plug spacing meant if was for a short stroke motor).
    Thanks for the replies guys.

    'Internal' inlet manifold? I'm not familiar with this? My head has what I would call a 'traditional' 8-port design. . .4 inlet ports with a coolant port between the centre two. . .

    In any case, I'll get onto David and see what he has.

    Thanks again. . .
    Peter and Sophia
    Jarrahdale, WA
    1970 ID19B

  5. #5
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soafie View Post
    Thanks for the replies guys.

    'Internal' inlet manifold? I'm not familiar with this? My head has what I would call a 'traditional' 8-port design. . .4 inlet ports with a coolant port between the centre two. . .

    In any case, I'll get onto David and see what he has.

    Thanks again. . .
    If you come to the Classic Car Day on Sunday at Whiteman Park, you'll find some of the Citroen folk there - might be a good idea to see if someone in Perth has a sound cylinder head.
    JohnW

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  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger
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    What about Chris Dunham? He listed numerous D and CX parts recently and is apparently in Perth. Worth asking anyway.
    DS and CX parts
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/arc.../t-102506.html
    Maybe, even a CX head if you swap the blanking plate and water pump around???

  7. #7
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    What about Chris Dunham? He listed numerous D and CX parts recently and is apparently in Perth. Worth asking anyway.
    DS and CX parts
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/arc.../t-102506.html
    Maybe, even a CX head if you swap the blanking plate and water pump around???
    That's a good idea. PM me if you can't get hold of him - I'm sure I have his email address somewhere.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
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  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, you can see the inlet studs in the pictures I could ask my father if he wants to sell his. I think he chucked out the spare DSpecial motors, but I know there is a head sitting there that maybe for sale. I'll ask him. Obviously it would **not** be crack tested or anything though. So like any 2nd hand car part a risk to buy.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
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    I have 2 or 3 D heads sitting in my garage...they came as spares but I have no idea how good or otherwise they may be
    however the previous owner was a engineer si I assume he kept them as they were ok...
    if anyone in Vic can cast an eye on them and see if they are any good for you....
    Can also send some pictures if that helps
    Cheers
    Rev. Dogboy


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  10. #10
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    PM sent

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts zykyra's Avatar
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    G'day mate, Bob Senn asked me to post on his behalf saying he had a solution for you via another French and Fantastic Automobile Club member. He has trouble logging into AF hence the post. Call him on 92930576 and he'll help you out.

    Best of luck with it all

    Cheers,

    Justin
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  12. #12
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zykyra View Post
    G'day mate, Bob Senn asked me to post on his behalf saying he had a solution for you via another French and Fantastic Automobile Club member. He has trouble logging into AF hence the post. Call him on 92930576 and he'll help you out.

    Best of luck with it all

    Cheers,

    Justin
    And we'll all be at the Classic Car Day tomorrow...
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

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  13. #13
    Tadpole soafie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    And we'll all be at the Classic Car Day tomorrow...
    Due to family commitments, I won’t be able to make it to Whiteman Park this year. . .it will be the first time since 1998 that I haven't had a car on display (usually a Mini).

    I think it was at the Whiteman Park show in around 2005 that I approached ACE regarding D's that might be for same around Perth - and was put on to Hans Weinert who sold us the car we now own.

    I'll contact Bob after Sunday and see what his advice is. . .as an aside, I was also going to ask for assistance on the French and Fantastic forum but my membership hasn't been approved yet.

    Thanks everyone for their help - really shows you what an invaluable resource a national network of like-minded individuals is. . .
    Peter and Sophia
    Jarrahdale, WA
    1970 ID19B

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    Hi Peter,
    Welcome back.
    You should be able to find a serviceable cylinder head, PROVIDED it has not had more than 0.1mm, that's 0.004" in the old money surface ground from its base. If more than that has been removed, the cylinder head will be too soft and requires re-hardening. This process is specialised and costly if done correctly. A specialist should be able to advise you on the cost, if you go that way.
    A used cylinder head, of unknown or unwarranted condition is really worth very little to nothing. It could be warped too, or have already been machined, bad valve seats, etc. That is apart from the known issue of corrosion.
    I've known of a couple of cylinder heads which have had more than the 0.1mm removed and subsequently failed. The factory hardening is that critical.
    As far as compatability is concerned, any D Special (1985cc) or DS21 from 1969 on cylinder head will be fine. The later the better. A usable cylinder head shouldn't cost any more than $300, provided it doesn't require more than a seat grinding, guides, a quick glide across the surface grinder and the usual clean up. The odd small divot should deduct a value of $100, the cost of welding and surfacing.
    Hope this helps.
    Hi
    I am interested in what sort of hardening Citroen did to these heads. Heat treated or rolled or ?? 0.1mm does not leave any margine for doing anything. How could you weld it up and resurface it flat. That head is certainly stuffed, is that common for these motors. Do the earlier long stroke motors suffer the same problem.
    jaahn

  15. #15
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Heat treated. There is a definite hardness difference after 0.1mm has been removed.
    Welding up is no problem, depending on the location and the area involved nor is re-surfacing, provided the weld is not porous.

    Had the same concern when confronted with the cylinder head on my DS21 engine. Fortunately, the corrosion damage wasn't deep and welding was confined to only the small areas concerned. Heat spread was controlled. The cylinder head specialist knew exactly what he was doing and did the job well. 0.09 was removed by surface grinding to achieve a perfect result.

    There was no overheating initially and the cylinder head was not warped. In my case the engine was seized and had been so for years, it was stuck and rusted solid in the bores.

    Once the head is warped beyond 0.1mm, removal of material and subsequent re-hardening MUST take place. A specialist engine rebuilder would better explain the process, as the requirement is different for each cylinder head. As was explained to me, had this needed to be done, the cylinder head would be sent to Melbourne for the work.
    This is not an uncommon procedure.
    Last edited by richo; 28th April 2013 at 07:41 PM. Reason: spelling/grammar nazi

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
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    took some photo's of the 2 heads I have..experts here can cast an eye over them...one has blanking plates on one side
    at the very least i will know what they suit!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rotten ID/D Special head-dsc04964.jpg   Rotten ID/D Special head-dsc04959.jpg   Rotten ID/D Special head-dsc04960.jpg   Rotten ID/D Special head-dsc04961.jpg   Rotten ID/D Special head-dsc04962.jpg   Rotten ID/D Special head-dsc04963.jpg  

    Rev. Dogboy


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  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy View Post
    took some photo's of the 2 heads I have..experts here can cast an eye over them...one has blanking plates on one side
    at the very least i will know what they suit!!
    Gee's they look rough they could be ok, only stripping and getting them tested. Ones a internal inlet manifold head ... are those broken off head bolts stuck in them ?? God there rough looking. Look how black and tar looking like the oil is in the one that would fit.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  18. #18
    Tadpole soafie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Gee's they look rough they could be ok, only stripping and getting them tested. Ones a internal inlet manifold head ... are those broken off head bolts stuck in them ?? God there rough looking. Look how black and tar looking like the oil is in the one that would fit.
    Yeah but the distinct lack of dirty great rust holes in the upper face still makes them better than the one I have. . .
    Peter and Sophia
    Jarrahdale, WA
    1970 ID19B

  19. #19
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soafie View Post
    Yeah but the distinct lack of dirty great rust holes in the upper face still makes them better than the one I have. . .
    Yep... the reason that heads sit like htat is generally no-one wants to invest the money in them to get them checked, as something that looks like that is far more likely to be buggered..... so the money you have invested in getting them stripped, dipped and pressure tested could be wasted (especially if you actually paid money for the head in the first place). The head david cavanagh has for sale has already been stripped, dipped and tested by the look of it. It's the same as the head above though ... internal inlet manifold.... so not the same as most.

    Getting them tested will make them worth a lot more. Just like me, I doubt dogboy wants to get them tested for sale, as if there no good they have cost you considerable money to find you have scrap metal that then can't be sold

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
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    so what car does the internal inlet manifold one fit??
    I like a few Citroen people have built up collections of spares (taking up a lot of space esp panels!!)
    I wouldn't test anything until I had a need to use it....that said..I wish I knew what to keep and what to turf....
    Happy for the head to go to WA without charge....once tested and fixed (if ok) Pete can give me what he thinks is fair and reasonable
    If it's knackered then it costs him his freight only (& having to dispose of a boat anchor)
    That said..it would be better for Pete if someone local could help him out..
    cheers
    Rev. Dogboy


    1969 DS21 Pallas BVH with leather
    1970 Renault 16TS
    1967 Honda S800 cabrio
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy View Post
    Happy for the head to go to WA without charge....once tested and fixed (if ok) Pete can give me what he thinks is fair and reasonable
    If it's knackered then it costs him his freight only (& having to dispose of a boat anchor)
    That said..it would be better for Pete if someone local could help him out..
    cheers
    He could always sell it to the local scrappy! It is aluminium!
    Cheers Gerry

  22. #22
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    I'm having an issue here.
    An old ID/D/DS without a head is at best a static museum piece, at worst scrap metal?
    But, from some of the posts I'm seeing the only available heads are old, used, and therefore are competely buggered?
    So, the consensus is: if the head in your car dies you send the whole car to scrap???
    This series of cars are getting older, if I had some spares, I think I would be investing a little time & money testing the heads. Sounds like they are already unobtanium & therefore even a reasonable one must be worth a fortune!
    I do agree buying a used head, untested, and in "original" condition is buying a pig in a poke, but Dogboy is saying, try this, if it works make me an offer. I think that's a fantastic attitude, at worst he loses a 'D' head, at best he makes a little money & gains a new best friend.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbwadley View Post
    I'm having an issue here.
    An old ID/D/DS without a head is at best a static museum piece, at worst scrap metal?
    But, from some of the posts I'm seeing the only available heads are old, used, and therefore are competely buggered?
    So, the consensus is: if the head in your car dies you send the whole car to scrap???
    This series of cars are getting older, if I had some spares, I think I would be investing a little time & money testing the heads. Sounds like they are already unobtanium & therefore even a reasonable one must be worth a fortune!
    I do agree buying a used head, untested, and in "original" condition is buying a pig in a poke, but Dogboy is saying, try this, if it works make me an offer. I think that's a fantastic attitude, at worst he loses a 'D' head, at best he makes a little money & gains a new best friend.
    Not at all! I don't know how you come to that conclusion.

    It is extremely unlikely that you find someone with a brand new or fully reconditioned head sitting around waiting for a buyer. Any D series head will probably be well used but not necessarily "buggered. I obtained a used head which was certainly pretty grungy and tired, but did not have too much corrosion. I had a specialist fit new valves, stem seals and valve guides, check for leaks and flatness and reassemble. I bolted it down on a new head gasket and replaced rocker cover and manifold gaskets too. Easy. All the parts needed were easily obtainable and the engineers bill was very reasonable.

    Have a look at post #81 on this thread:

    DS Pallas Restoration
    Michael
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    I've owned & worked on a lot of old cars, from 1920's and 1930's Buicks, to various makes & models from the 60's and 70's. I know the frustration of finding parts new, used or otherwise, for cars that history would rather forget.
    Australia is unlucky in many respects in that we have a small population, and an even smaller number of cars. In the USA & Europe you can find NOS, re-building & refurbishing companies, even foundaries that will create one-off reproductions, but by the same token we don't always try to make the most of what we have. I once got my Dad to drive from Tas to Canberra to swap a '27 Master 6 Buick rolling chassis with mechanicals for a '28 Master 6 rolling chassis with mechanicals. The whole trip cost more than the value of the two rusty wrecks, but it meant 2 people could continue with restorations of 2 very rare Australian cars. My 28-47x was one of only 277 RHD cars exported from the states with Fisher bodies, the '27 was even rarer.
    My point is: Someone pokes their head up & says hey this is what I have, you are willing to take a punt, & it seems to me everybody thinks this is a bad idea.
    I'm not saying every used head in every garage needs to tested right now, I'm saying if I had spares why wouldn't I be selecting the best looking one & getting it cleaned & tested. If not for personal use then apparently its a saleable item.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
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    well the head is on it's way..sent in todays post
    fingers crossed all is well...weight came in between 14-15 kg for those that ever need to move one...
    Rev. Dogboy


    1969 DS21 Pallas BVH with leather
    1970 Renault 16TS
    1967 Honda S800 cabrio
    Citroen 1966 ID Safari (with 23 running gear)
    1975 VW Kombi poptop
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    1988 Vespa PX200E

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