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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Default CX running issues

    The problem has been ongoing for the last 6 months and started when I let the fuel get low and just topped up small amounts to move around. My first guess was blocked main jet from tank debris getting through.

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    The symptoms are sudden intermittent loss of acceleration through the middle range of pedal movement. There is some initial throttle response with a slight touch of pedal and also some ability to maintain speed by opening the throttle wide thus engaging the second throat. If placed in neutral at this stage the engine will stall and lots of bubbles can be seen in the nylon return line from carby to tank if idle can be maintained. It seems to occur more readily during wider throttle openings such as going up a hill. The fuel pump is electric.

    The cure is to switch the ignition of and crank the engine over again often while running. It clears as soon as this is done only to occur again sometime later. The problem does not go away unless the engine is switched off.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Things I've checked so far:

    Carby:
    Carby removed; jets taken apart, checked for correct size/placement, cleaned; float checked/ adjusted numerous times; needle and seat checked; vacuum capsule hose renewed(was broken); air filter checked, all air hoses sealed.

    Fuel system:
    Tank removed found to have no debris, pick up line nylon filter torn so removed, lines clear; Fuel hoses renewed from electric fuel pump to carby with two inline filters fitted(one after pump and one before carby); fuel filler breather hose clear and problem occurs with fuel cap off.

    Ignition system:
    Spark plugs checked for condition and gap reset.

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy N View Post
    Things I've checked so far:

    Carby:
    Carby removed; jets taken apart, checked for correct size/placement, cleaned; float checked/ adjusted numerous times; needle and seat checked; vacuum capsule hose renewed(was broken); air filter checked, all air hoses sealed.

    Fuel system:
    Tank removed found to have no debris, pick up line nylon filter torn so removed, lines clear; Fuel hoses renewed from electric fuel pump to carby with two inline filters fitted(one after pump and one before carby); fuel filler breather hose clear and problem occurs with fuel cap off.

    Ignition system:
    Spark plugs checked for condition and gap reset.
    I've had not dissimilar and totally intermittent and frustrating symptoms from my CX and it ended up being points/condenser on more than one occasion now. I replaced the fuel pump and tried a separate carburettor and three weeks later it happened again. Both times I thought I'd fixed it. Since then I've replaced the coil and ballast resistor and (yet again) fitted new points and condenser and it hasn't (yet) happened again for a year or so of light use of the car.

    My distributor shows up as worn in the centrifugal advance area and I'm going to fit a 123 ignition system when it arrives from Holland.

    I've seen many air bubbles in fuel systems in carbie cars over the years, but I'm not sure they've stopped me.

    These things are always difficult and fixed by the last thing you do!

    Good luck.
    JohnW

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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Gee which one of those do I start replacing!? You are right about the thing about doing a whole lot of other things before a problem is fixed
    I haven't got into the ignition side of things other than looking for signs of it being too lean on the plugs. I spent many weeks confused at why my GS wouldn't start and while I thought it was fuel starvation and a whole lot of other things, it ended up being a faulty condenser.
    Time to get looking at the ignition I guess.

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    Old adage......90% of fuel problems are ignition !

    R.

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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    I just called to order a condenser and to find out if I really needed one and was told by someone who has worked on old Cits for many years that it is most likely something caught in the carby blocking the main jet. As I have only swooshed fuel around and not blasted the carby with compressed air he thought it may still have something caught in the gallery the jets sit in between the fuel bowls.

    Another reason is how can it be the condenser as I can still drive the car with the pedal floored and there are no other issues such as poor starting, although it doesn't start as well as it used to. He ruled out the coil too.

    Now I'm not saying it is not an ignition fault, but it is interesting that I am getting someone who would almost bet that it isn't ignition. One way to see is to blast that gallery out with compressed air and I'll see what happens.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy N View Post
    I just called to order a condenser and to find out if I really needed one and was told by someone who has worked on old Cits for many years that it is most likely something caught in the carby blocking the main jet. As I have only swooshed fuel around and not blasted the carby with compressed air he thought it may still have something caught in the gallery the jets sit in between the fuel bowls.

    Another reason is how can it be the condenser as I can still drive the car with the pedal floored and there are no other issues such as poor starting, although it doesn't start as well as it used to. He ruled out the coil too.

    Now I'm not saying it is not an ignition fault, but it is interesting that I am getting someone who would almost bet that it isn't ignition. One way to see is to blast that gallery out with compressed air and I'll see what happens.
    Cx's are known to pull small amounts of carbon that deposit in the crank case breather system into the emulsification tubes of the carb. With the plastic intake removed from the carb top cover. You will see them located between the two choke tubes in the top cover. Remove the cover to access the air correction jets on top of the emulsion tubes ( take care with the choke flap operating rod---it is a fiddly bugger to refit and also is easily damaged ---don't ask me how I know)). Remove the emulsion tubes with a piece of welding wire. Then blow them out with compressed air. Also clean the air correction jets and replace taking note the each is fitted to the side that it originally came from. They are calibrated differently. Then clean the intake and the crank case breather pipes. The screen in the green metal take off pipe on the side of the crankcase may also be clogged with carbonised oil. Clean this and the metal take off pipes.
    Personally I would remove the entire carb and strip it down. There are also vacuum capsules that have diaphragms in them. They operate various idle up functions for air con and C-Matic trans. If any of these are perforated they may admit air. The Main idle up capsule at the rear of the carb also has an O ring sealing the vacuum take off from the choke tube-----check to see that this O ring is present!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Your going to be chasing your tail forever here..... First, replace the plugs, points, leads, cap, rotor button etc...., then whip the carby off and throw a kit through it (blowing compressed air through every passage). Once this is done you have a "known" starting point to work from. The ballast resister wiring gets really ropey too, so check that.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Your initial statement was "started when I let the fuel get low and just topped up small amounts to move around".

    I reckon junk in the carby is where the problem lies.

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    I had a similar problem (I've had them all) and it turned out to be disintegrating plastic carby float. The corner had started crumbling away and there were little plastic pieces in the carby - they settled down and blocked the jets after a while - stopping the engine made them float again hence unblocking the jets. Check the condition of the float can be done by submerging it in the boiling water, if there are bubbles coming out then it leaks.

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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Such a complex issue I guess I might have been waiting for some more idea of when the problem occurred or not....well today I got it. The electric fuel pump packed it in so the big blue thing is stuck in the middle of woop woop. Easy to imagine that a failing electric pump could also explain the running issue.....guess I'll have to wait and see

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy N View Post
    Such a complex issue I guess I might have been waiting for some more idea of when the problem occurred or not....well today I got it. The electric fuel pump packed it in so the big blue thing is stuck in the middle of woop woop. Easy to imagine that a failing electric pump could also explain the running issue.....guess I'll have to wait and see
    Always good when an intermittent problem becomes permanent!! Let's hope it isn't a coincidence....
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Your going to be chasing your tail forever here..... First, replace the plugs, points, leads, cap, rotor button etc...., then whip the carby off and throw a kit through it (blowing compressed air through every passage). Once this is done you have a "known" starting point to work from. The ballast resister wiring gets really ropey too, so check that.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Sometimes the little mongrel metal plugs in the drillings in Weber carbs go for a walk...

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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    The new fuel pump works well and is much quieter.Too early to say yet if the problem is fixed. About 2k's from the driveway it choked up again however there was hardly any power when opening the second throat. I couldn't get up the driveway and the fuel filter in the engine bay looked empty. It was getting low on fuel so I wen't off to get more and it was able to move again. I wonder if the problem was the failing fuel pump and also when the fuel is low the same thing happens. In both cases the fuel pump was unable to pump fuel.

    I need to drop the fuel tank again to renew the brittle fuel lines there and to do a bit of welding without risk of explosion. After this I'll put plenty of fuel in and also sort out the dash connection for the fuel guage. The fuel sender was tested to be working but the guage doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy N View Post
    The new fuel pump works well and is much quieter.Too early to say yet if the problem is fixed. About 2k's from the driveway it choked up again however there was hardly any power when opening the second throat. I couldn't get up the driveway and the fuel filter in the engine bay looked empty. It was getting low on fuel so I wen't off to get more and it was able to move again. I wonder if the problem was the failing fuel pump and also when the fuel is low the same thing happens. In both cases the fuel pump was unable to pump fuel.

    I need to drop the fuel tank again to renew the brittle fuel lines there and to do a bit of welding without risk of explosion. After this I'll put plenty of fuel in and also sort out the dash connection for the fuel guage. The fuel sender was tested to be working but the guage doesn't.
    had a 2200 carb model, would get fuel blockages, would have to pull the jets out , blow them clean,
    was caused by the charcoal pollution canister on the right bulkhead,seems it was letting tiny bits back in the
    fuel line,dis connected the fuel lines to it and bypassed it, never had another blockage

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by denxm View Post
    had a 2200 carb model, would get fuel blockages, would have to pull the jets out , blow them clean,
    was caused by the charcoal pollution canister on the right bulkhead,seems it was letting tiny bits back in the
    fuel line,dis connected the fuel lines to it and bypassed it, never had another blockage
    I never had a CX with the charcoal canister that I can remember but did have an ongoing problem with the C-matic familiale. It was from bits in the carby blocking jets. The amount of time spent on the side of the road clearing jets out became part of a daily routine.

    I do have a strong feeling with this one that it is simply fuel starvation from a failing pump, along with not having a fuel guage to judge how much fuel is there and actually running low on fuel. It appears that the tank holds a fair bit of fuel below the pick-up as it is very heavy to deal with even when empty there must be 10 litres or so.

    Thanks for the replies, there must've been loads of info about this lost in the great AF crash because if you search for answers there are few.... and I've realised that it's not the first time I've had problems with a CX

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    When it starts coughing - does pulling the choke help? If it does then it is not the fuel pressure from the pump problem.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Hey Kimmo, Sorry about delay in reply. The choke did help a little but I reckon I've fixed it. I had to wait until today to test it out as I went and got some welding done for roadworthy. It didn't once play up but could do with a tune up to get some better throttle response.
    So looks like it was the fuel pump intermittently breaking down and then finally stopped. Here it is fitted in the car with the disposable filter now before the fine pump filter to reduce particle loading on the pump filter:


    CX resto 152 by andxeron, on Flickr

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy N View Post
    Hey Kimmo, Sorry about delay in reply. The choke did help a little but I reckon I've fixed it. I had to wait until today to test it out as I went and got some welding done for roadworthy. It didn't once play up but could do with a tune up to get some better throttle response.
    So looks like it was the fuel pump intermittently breaking down and then finally stopped. Here it is fitted in the car with the disposable filter now before the fine pump filter to reduce particle loading on the pump filter:
    Are those filters on the suction side of the pump? I'd be a bit careful with those particular worm drive clamps, particularly if the filters are on the high pressure side. I've had that type come loose before now, and am trying to avoid them.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Are those filters on the suction side of the pump? I'd be a bit careful with those particular worm drive clamps, particularly if the filters are on the high pressure side. I've had that type come loose before now, and am trying to avoid them.
    Cheers
    Yeah in the picture the fuel flows left to right. The disposable filter I fitted before the integrated pump filter so as not to load up that filter too much.

    There are varying qualities with those particular hose clamps. When I buy them they are $2-$3 each. The cheap 50-pack clamp set for $10 is not the type that I would use for anything... however I have in the past and they just fall apart when you tighten them up. Would you suggest a better type of clamp like the ones you pinch to open then release?

    The only problem I had with leakage was from the pump fittings where the fuel leaked past the thread no matter how tight. The fitting instructions did not say thread sealer must be used, however after messing around with this one I would most certainly recommend it. The electric pump sure helps with cold starting as the supply line is already primed before cranking so mostly is starts straight away and runs much more smoother now. I just hope that is the final word on that

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    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    You'll need to see the pump-filter setup I have The whole assembly is about 5 times bigger with the massive size original type (NOS) pump and a large metal filter.
    The manual pumps are a pain especially if you only start the cars every forthnight like I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy N View Post
    Hey Kimmo, Sorry about delay in reply. The choke did help a little but I reckon I've fixed it. I had to wait until today to test it out as I went and got some welding done for roadworthy. It didn't once play up but could do with a tune up to get some better throttle response.
    So looks like it was the fuel pump intermittently breaking down and then finally stopped. Here it is fitted in the car with the disposable filter now before the fine pump filter to reduce particle loading on the pump filter:


    CX resto 152 by andxeron, on Flickr
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    The fuel injection fuel pumps are a larger cylinder shape right? This one is rated at 3 to 4.5 psi which suits the mechanical max pressure output of 4.6 psi. I believe the pressure for the fuel injection is much more and the filters are stronger hence metal casing. I just used the basic plastic filters for low pressure and it works very well.

    Just had another go in a S1 CX turbo and can't believe just how much difference between the two cars. Nice to be able to hear a turbo working too

  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    you need to use the hose clamps that that pull down evenly. Not worm drive that chop the rubber up. I've always found the worm drive clamps damage the fuel lines.

    something with a similar design to these:

    http://compare.ebay.com.au/like/3804...PriceItemTypes

    that filter already looks dirty in the piccies !!!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    They look like nice clips. I'll have a look for them next time.... no point going over everything again just to change all the clips...the worm drive ones are adequate I guess and they are used everywhere else on the car.

    The filter has already collected some grit from the tank but I didn't think it was overly necessary to change it again as it's only been in there a few weeks. The problem is that before this filter was fitted after the pump so all that grit went through the pump first to get there!
    Now the same filter is fitted before the new pump which also has a pre-filter. Happy sailing

  25. #25
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy N View Post
    They look like nice clips. I'll have a look for them next time.... no point going over everything again just to change all the clips...the worm drive ones are adequate I guess and they are used everywhere else on the car.

    The filter has already collected some grit from the tank but I didn't think it was overly necessary to change it again as it's only been in there a few weeks. The problem is that before this filter was fitted after the pump so all that grit went through the pump first to get there!
    Now the same filter is fitted before the new pump which also has a pre-filter. Happy sailing
    Only way to go IMHO. Referring to the clamp type Shane has shown.

    Electric fuel pump is a good idea - I ought to do the same with my CX 2400.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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